Of interest

Well, since you ask: "Blink blink..cites for an obvious sig? Are you daft? " I'd rather be thought of as "deft" but let's see if I can steer you away from personal comments and toward some FACTS; you do know what they are? There is no "common knowledge to back up your "buggy whips to high tech" assertation unless it's something your Republican cohorts cooked up to allow them to sit back and watch jobs go overseas. Let's hear something concrete for a change or perhaps you'd just prefer to shut-up right now?

Furthermore, observing a very few machine shops in your very small "neck-of-the woods" does not give you enough data to extrapolate the employment details for the rest of the country. LOL, what conceit!

Now the election fever coals are banked for a while why don't you take the time to look around and see what's happened to this country in the last 6 years (and please don't insult us with any more pictures of dead bodies). You'll find almost everything, including family income, has taken a nose dive.

dennis in nca

Big question right from the gitgo. How would YOU prevent outsourceing besides setting up a Police State?

Be specific.

Southern California is a "very small neck of the woods"?

Dead bodies? Daft again

Ive looked at the situation over the last 50 yrs, quite frankly..and I dont see the past 6 yrs being anything particularly unique.. Outsourcing was growing since the late 80s..and in many industries..long before that.

So if it happened befor 2001..it was Still All Bush's Fault?

Gunner

"The importance of morality is that people behave themselves even if nobody's watching. There are not enough cops and laws to replace personal morality as a means to produce a civilized society. Indeed, the police and criminal justice system are the last desperate line of defense for a civilized society. Unfortunately, too many of us see police, laws and the criminal justice system as society's first line of defense." --Walter Williams

========= google on or see

There are also non-tarrif trade barriers that can equalize the playing field such as requiring the importer to pay social security taxes on the estimated labor content of the import based on at least the US minimum wages, at the same time the pay the tarrif. This is vital where a company establishes a new plant outside the US, shuts down an existing US plant, and then begins to import. Most likely this should be based on the equivilant/previous US labor rates and not the minimum wage.

The Federal government could also help [itself and the citizens] by eliminating any US income tax and other deductions for expences/costs for erecting manufacturing or R&D facilities not on US territory.

This country belongs to the people and not the transnational corporations, and its time we started acting like it.

Unka' George (George McDuffee) .............................. Only in Britain could it be thought a defect to be "too clever by half." The probability is that too many people are too stupid by three-quarters.

John Major (b. 1943), British Conservative politician, prime minister. Quoted in: Observer (London, 7 July 1991).

This is the best idea so far.

Rule #35 "That which does not kill you, has made a huge tactical error"

Good idea, but we have a government "By & for the corporations" not the people. Sad but that's the way it is..

That's a good dream. I wish it could happen.

So how do we do this? Corporations have millions of dollars to "bribe" the pols...

Not to poke a stick at you guys or anything- tempers seem hot enough as is- but do we actually have any evidence that outsourcing is worse for the American job market than tarriffs are? I mean, sure tarriffs sound good, but even Smith warned about the bathtub effect- its one of the most reliable economic laws that prices go up not just on derivative goods and services, but on associated goods and services, when the price of a product increases, and I don't think any of us want to see prices on steel or aluminum or, for shame, oil to go up, and narrow tarriffs aren't much better- sure it raises the selling envelope for U.S. businesses, but it also lowers the price point for the average consumer. Unless you already have a big overlap there- something that's not supposed to happen in a market economy- that isn't a terribly tolerable market for businesses to be in. It also affects the way in which jobs are created, because when the prices for industrial goods go higher the rate at which businesses purchase them tends to be less elastic than with B2C transactions, thus disproportionately burning middle- to end-chain businesses, such as everything this side of China. Thoughts? GCC

This is not a valid point- even in your specific examples. Broadly speaking, the concern you are voicing is not one about OUR economy, but ALL economies- that capital outlay must be matched to capital inflow over a period of time that allows for market forces. Speaking specifically to your examples, Grumman as a manufacturer is responsible only for making airplanes, but Grumman as a design firm is responsible for creating new machines with new markets, rather than simply overpopulating an old market, which requires highly trained, highly skilled aeronautical engineers, and the DRAM argument is terrible, since if you can design DRAM you can also, with very limited retraining, design SRAM, flash chips, or CPU's, to say nothing of the consumer and industrial electronics which use those devices. This is what Intel does, and it is very successful at it. This is the fundamental problem with the protectionist argument, however: it is retrogressive, claiming that the economy of the past is the only economy. I feel no qualms at all about saying that that simply isnt true- that economies grow, and change, and that we need to accept that because ultimately- no one can fight the tide forever. GCC

I see while I was out George jumped in with an answer which pretty much said what I would have (but phrased more like I would have _wanted_ to). Of interest here is the apparent fact YOU could not see the obvious. But what more could be expected from a "die-hard" Republican such as yourself. Tariffs, when used correctly, have been a effective tool wielded by government, to prevent unfair overseas corporate/government advantage. But now that it's the American worker who would directly benefit from restrictions, SURPRISE the government throws them to the wolfs.

Yes, very.

Short or long term memory loss? What _have_ you been smoking now? Maybe you should write things down?

They say nothing is really new but you don't have to go too far back to remember when things were different. During the last 6 years the whole outsourcing situation has accelerated tremendously; while Clinton was in office you could still get computer tech support in this country. Now go ahead and say you didn't know that.

As far as "All Bush's Fault?" I have no way to know, with any certainty, what the situation would have been with Democrats in charge (but we'll soon get an idea :)) but the last 6 years were directed by YOUR boys. Be a man and take responsibility for your choices.

dennis in nca

Why wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

Either way, it's a zero sum game. Taxes the corporations don't pay, get payed by workers, which leads to higher wages and costs to the corporations.

Which leads to the motivation to export the work to low wage countries.

Cutting spending is the key.

Corporations DONT pay taxes. The end user does. Taxes are always passed along to the consumer.

Everytime.

Gunner

Rule #35 "That which does not kill you, has made a huge tactical error"

So you are then saying that Bush didnt start the trend to outsourcing? Odd..thats what you have been implying all along.

Directed by MY boys? No Democrats outsourced? Fascinating. And Nancy Pelosi doesnt hire illegal aliens, and hires union restaurant and hotel workers?

Fascinating

Gunner

Rule #35 "That which does not kill you, has made a huge tactical error"

Gunner wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com:

That's what I was getting at.

Fascinating that you should imply I was implying something I didn't even try to imply. Where DO you get your ideas; fascinating. Please read the following again for reference.

Oh, that's right: The key phrase now is "bi-partisan", exactly as Bush & Co. promoted during the last 6 years, right? ;) So you'd like everyone to believe the Republicans made sure all decisions were made by both camps; chuckle chuckle chuckle (now _that_ was funny). Yes, I said YOUR boys (woops, there goes your short term memory again, how convenient).

Nancy Pelosi??? If something is wrong of great magnitude (kinda like Halliburton, oil prices, New Orleans under water, etc.) I'm sure the Republicans will try to crucify her as much as possible (their best trick) although I think I'd rather watch the trials of Republicans for a while. The Democrats are so boring in their wrongdoing compared to the Republicans, don't you think? No imagination.

dennis in nca

Read the first paragraph above..your words, your implication.

Chuckle..I saw the olive branch passed to the Dems many times..and have it returned in the form of splinters driven under the fingernails of Republicans, by the Demonrats. And I saw all the concessions given to the Demonrats..the Prescription Drug Benefit being one of them. And even then..the Dems bitched because it didnt go far enough.

Odd..Halliburton was simply the continuation of existing Clinton No Bid contracts, oil prices are far outside the boundries of EITHER party..and New Orleans..well..snicker..that was well and truely a Demonrat clusterfuck. From the Democrat chief of police, through that rat bastard Nagin, up through the totally incompetent Gov. Blanco. Not to mention the corruption ridden Levy Boards.

Its fascinating that you would have the chutzpah to even bring that utter disaster back to the light of day. It would seem that you would want to bury it as deep as you can, like a 4 day old road kill.

Gunner

Political Correctness

A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but Gunner wrote on Fri, 17 Nov 2006 16:49:52 GMT in rec.crafts.metalworking :

Outsourcing began as soon as transportation problems were solved. You don't think Stonehenge was built from local resources?

Everything imported from outside the county is "outsource". Not the country, the local county. It is just that in the last 25 years or so, it has become ubiquitous and obvious, and it is not just an American problem. The Bank of India outsourced its back office operations in 2004 (iirc) to Hewlett-Packard. Boeing "outsourced" a lot of production to places ranging from Arlington and Renton, to Montana and Kansas, not to mention the overseas components.

Of course. George Bush is the All Powerful, able to move hurricanes with a wave of his hand, change the temperature of the atmosphere with a single stroke of the pen, can cause recessions to start years before he is elected, let alone inaugurated.

George Bush is even more powerful than the Bicycle riders!

Of course it is Bush's fault. Just like the problem we are having finding enough machinists, or that there are more U-Haul trucks in Arlington (WA!) than there have been in years.

Now, if I could just get him to have me win the lottery. I'll even meet him halfway and buy a ticket.

tschus pyotr

-- pyotr filipivich "Given our monstrous, overgrown government structure, any three letters chosen at random would probably designate an agency or part of a department that could be profitably abolished." Milton Freidman

If memory serves, Mrs Kroc used to tell her boys, that they needed to get real jobs. This franchising thing with Hamburger Restaurants couldn't possibly last.

Sigh. OTOH, how many people decide they had enough working eight hours a day for someone else, and now work 12 hours a day six days a week, for other people? My hats off to those who try it, even if they fail.

tschus pyotr

This is so funny; a nice change instead of the usual pre-election rehetoric. It's almost as though you're setting-up ol' George in a dunk tank, great fun:

How did it progress.....? First was something from George like: "No one had ANY idea the levees could be breached..." and THEN that HILLARIOUS video when we heard him being breifed about the pending danger !!!! LAUGH, LAUGH, LAUGH, LAUGH, LAUGH.

Hey, wait a minute, he LIED to us, the American people. Shouldn't he be impeached for that? LAUGH, LAUGH, LAUGH.

Ahhhh, the last LAUGH; how sweet it is.

dennis in nca

P.S. Don't be such a poor looser.

PS..where were the lies? Except from Nagin, Blanco and the DNC.

Ill be waiting.

But take your meds first, or sober up, nothing above made any sense based on what we know now. Wel..what informed people know now.

Gunner

Political Correctness

A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical liberal minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.

Now that you've taken your dump? Martin, Martin...there's plenty of metal here. Just take a look at the headers. If you don't like the silly battles going on here, take a crap somewhere else.

It's only fair, Martin.

-- Ed Huntress