OT: when to shoot back

The question seems to be when to shoot back. Just as soon as you are shot at. Forward, back.

Ping.

wws

Now there's a career I never was told about in high school. Does it pay well? And, is it non-union?

:)

Jon

There is no pay, only perks.

j/b

Someone breaks into my house in the middle of the night, announces he's gonna kill me unless I go back into the bedroom, I'm supposed to not believe that he can?

Sounds to me like he's proven, at this point, his ability to fulfill his claimn in 1).

I'll send flowers to your widow.

Who the fark cares? Someone breaks into my house and points a gun at someone in my family? I'm going to stop him.

He already escalated to use of deadly force in step 3 or so.

And you lose, because you're dead. Your response reminds me of the old email joke about democrat vs. republican, where the democrat analyzes if the bad guy might be opressed, what he might be thinking and all that, before defending himself.

You're several steps too late. And probably dead because you wanted to evaluate what the criminal's motivations were for threatening you with a gun, rather than stopping a credible threat.

I'm sure your heirs will be ever so impressed by your compassion.

You have GOT to be kidding. By MN law, I couldn't legally shoot some guy who broke into my house and shot my wife or kid, until he took a shot at me?

So... you're saying if'n a dude is standing there poppin' off one person after another .... you're NOT ALLOWED to drop him???? Glad I don' t live there.... Ken.

Are you asking when we should act in accordance with the law of the municipality or when *we* think we should be able to act?

I carry a gun on the job and here in New York we are required to go to classes to review things like this every year.

You're putting an unnecessary requirement of having to shoot when you pull out.(This I cannot accept). Things can change between you going for your firearm and getting it pointed at the target.

You also specifically siad a Glock, and the location being a public hearing. Since this is make believe, are we allowed to be Peace officers under those circumstances? Is he visibly agitated or appear to be an EDP?

Anyway, I'll break from the norm and say #1... as far as reaching into my holster and putting my hand on the pistol grip.(And let's forget about the public hearing part).

As for pulling the trigger.

#2 if you are a cop.

#3 if you are a civilian(willing to take legal challenges). :-)

#4 is a little more supportable than #3.

#5 is in the same category as #4.

#6. Make sure you double up.(Two holes are better than one).

#7. If you wait for this one no prosecutor can touch you. And you'll be a big shot with the women.

Now all that applies to New York. Things are more liberal for the police. One guy got swiss-cheesed for having a wallet(if you believe the wallet was actually in his hand). The four officers, who fired 41 rounds, were exonerated, because he was *thought* to have a gun.

P.S.: Can anyone here machine an ejector rod for a Colt Metropolitan MK3(38 special)?

Darren Harris Staten Island, New York.

READ THE POST. He asked if this was in a MEETING NOT if he broke into your home. B&E and then saying I'm going to kill you IS a tangible threat. "I have a gun" (NOTE he isn't showing a gun, threatening with a gun or anything else just saying "I have a gun".

Yep he now HAS a gun. But he still has not DONE anything. I can be standing in a meeting, say "I have a gun" draw it out of the holster and hand it to someone els who wanted to see it. I might also be turning it over to a desk cop or something similar. Still NOT A THREAT.

Why? Did the OP say he pulled the trigger? NOPE, Brandishing is illegal BUT it is NOT considered to be grounds for self defense. Illegal, Yep, stupid, yep, grounds for you to murder the "fella" NOPE.

Now if the guy broke into the room, starts raving "I've got a gun" draws it out and waves it around screaming "I'm going to kill you" then your closer to fair game. Now you have a tangible threat. BUT in most states your still going to have problems unless he threatens YOU specifically. Most states still consider flight before fight as the proper option.

And again I ask WHERE DID YOU READ THAT THE FELLA BROKE IN?

REALLY, I see him brandishing a weapon. That is not and does not mean "DEADLY FORCE" >>When to act? >>1) when a fella says he has a gun. >>2) when a fella displays a gun. >>3) when a fella waves it around the room. >>4) when a fella points at somebody else. >>5) when a fella shoots the ceiling etc. >>6) when a fella points it at you. >>7) when a fella has shot somebody. >>Any other action point?

You might want to look at the actual laws for self defense. I know of NO state that allows one person to kill another unless they feel, beyond a doubt, that they are in immediate threat of imminent bodily harm or death.

At least my heirs won't be able to say "Yep he went nut's one day and shot this poor guy who found a gun in the street and was turning it in at a meeting at the court house, Now he's in jail for murder and the poor bastards widow owns his house" From the way you post yours will be able to say that.

Suuuure. And a reasonable man is supposed to wait for the situation to escalate until he's shot at, is that it? Sorry, no. If some raving lunatic, regardless of the setting, waves a gun around saying how he'll kill someone, that's escalation to deadly force. Give me a jury trial, at least I'll live to participate.

Closer to? Are you INSANE? The guy waves a gun around and threatens to kill me? ANY reasonable man will stop said threat if he has the means to.

If you're claiming that I'm not allowed to protect my family by the previous, as it seems you are, I'm afraid that I have no alternative but to challenge you to cite chapter and verse of the law you pretend to be citing. I hope you understand.

Cite, please.

Does it matter how he got here? He's waving a gun around, threatening me and others. How does his entry method enter into it? I have been engaged with deadly force. Your Type would tell me I'm not allowed to shoot until he has shot at me and missed? No. Sorry, but not giving the bad guy a free-throw on this one.

Whose side are you on, anyway? Seems like you want to give the bad guy every chance possible rather than me, who is just defending my family. Justify your position; feel free to use as much space as needed to do so. Try to avoid personal attacks in same if you can.

Good luck with that, dead guy.

Beyond a doubt? Cite, please. Contrast and compare with the "reasonable man" test. Show your work.

Riiiiiight. Because I'm unable to distinguish between some idiot at a gun turn-in for 20 bucks program vs. some madman threatening my life, is that it?

Don't presume to speak for me; you're barely capable of making your own points.

Sorry, Yes.

That is NOT your job in this situation.

You pull a gun out, and now YOU are acting aggressive - adn there are TWO raving maniacs in the room.

And the legal ai\uthorities have every right to tap YOU. (So, no, you didn't live to participate).

Tell me, Dave, Do you have a carry permit?

Richard

Thought so...

Bullshit. I'm not going to wait for a murderer to shoot every other person in the room, then shoot at me and miss, before I stop him. Not gonna happen.

I did not escalate to deadly force, he did.

In which states, specifically? Cite that which you claim to be true.

I don't, because Doyle our idiot governor has twice vetoed CCW legislation. He won't be reelected.

I see. So because or leftist extremist idiot of a governor values the safety of criminals over honest citizens, my opinion and rights don't matter, is that it?

Evasion of my specific questions noted. Did you have an answer to those, or just a blind dismissal of the value of my life and that of my family because I live in Wisconsin with an idiot governor?

There is a written test to qualify for a cary permit.

You will NOT pass with these beliefs...

Which state, specifically? Do you not understand what "Cite, please" means? Repeating your claims and disparaging remarks that my opinion doesn't matter, implying that I need to wait until a gunman shoots specifically at me before responding, isn't cutting it. Show us all the facts you apparently think you have.

Let me save you some time. It varies by state, as of course you should know, pretending to be an expert on the topic as you do. So. Cite your sources please.

And I ask you again to pull your head out of your ass and show me where the OP said anything about defending a home?????????????????????

Here is the damn post. Maybe you should READ it and shut up

New York Penal Law Article 35 - "Defense of Justification" Section 05-30 law out all of the reasons in NY.

The defendant, who was standing in the doorway between his apartment and the common hall at the time of an attack, had a duty under Penal Law Section 35.15 to retreat into his home before defensively using deadly physical force against the victim.

This was the finding of the New York State Court of Appeals in People v. Richard Aiken. The defendant appealed his manslaughter conviction on the grounds the trial court erred when it refused to instruct the jury that the defendant had no duty to retreat because the evidence supports the idea that he was in the doorway at the time of the attack.

At the defendant's request, the trial court instructed the jury as to Penal Law Section 35.15, defense of jurisdiction, including, a person may nevertheless not use defensive deadly force if he knows he can with complete safety to himself avoid such use of deadly physical force by retreating.

Got a bit tense in Kirkwood, MO about a month ago. The town gadfly shot a cop outside, then entered the city council meeting and started shooting the elected officials. He killed the police officer inside the meeting, then 2 council members, and shot the mayor, who survived. He was chasing the city attorney around the room, who was throwing chairs at the assailant when the rest of the police force rushed in and blasted the guy.

Jon

I've followed this exchange with interest.

Dave, you certainly have a right to your opinions but they do not supercede applicable law. Citing laws in other states would be irrelevant because you are subject to the laws of your state whether or not you like or agree with them.

You certainly can act according to your opinions rather than according to law, and there might be times when you see that as the least bad choice -- but when you do that you are then at risk of prosecution like any other scofflaw. So it's a good idea to understand law applicable to you whether or not you like it or agree with it. Then pick yer pony, take yer ride.

A few internet cites are not nearly sufficent for understanding, not even close. The mandatory CCW course in MN is 6 hours of classroom training followed by a 50-round proficiency test at the range that involves firing both one-handed and two-handed, with time limits and reloads, at ranges to 50 feet. It's an easy qual test, but applicants must pass it.

In MN and I think in most states, defense of yourself and family in your domocile is an entirely different matter. I again encourage you to seek authoritative guidance re the laws of your state. In MN there is no expectation of retreat nor any permit required for home defense. If an intruder presents in your domocile, he doesn't have to declare intent to kill for you to regard him as an immediate threat. He need not say a word nor brandish a weapon, his mere presence is sufficient. Just don't shoot him in the back because that would create doubt about immediate threat. Advice from a Mnpls PD cop I knew at one time: things are much simpler if the perp has expired before the cops arrive.

You'll very likely still get sued in civil court except in castle law states, which MN and WS are not. Cost of doin bidness.

YMMV in Wisconsin.

Not at all. Home defense is very different. An intruder that presents in one's domocile may be presumed to be an immediate threat. There is no requirement for retreat in one's domocile in MN. Fire at will, don't wait for the scumbag to make a speech much less pop a cap.