OT: when to shoot back



Don, I think you're missing the point. Richard has made some very sweeping claims which amount to "Dave would be in the wrong, always and everywhere". Dave challenges those claims and asks Richard to back them up. Richard is, of course, unable to do so.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

Youmean like this one?
> Suuuure. And a reasonable man is supposed to wait for the situation to > escalate until he's shot at, is that it? Sorry, no. If some raving > lunatic, regardless of the setting, waves a gun around saying how he'll > kill someone, that's escalation to deadly force. Give me a jury trial, > at least I'll live to participate. >
Sorry, Yes.
That is NOT your job in this situation.
You pull a gun out, and now YOU are acting aggressive - adn there are TWO raving maniacs in the room.
And the legal ai\uthorities have every right to tap YOU. (So, no, you didn't live to participate).
Tell me, Dave, Do you have a carry permit?
Richard
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 09:28:00 -0600, cavelamb himself

Son..not only are you using a broad brush, but a large paint roller.
You are so far off the beam in most of your postings as to be ludicrious.
Ive mentioned before that I too am an ex cop (California) and give firearms training. And I have one of those rare California CCWs, 28 yrs and counting so far.

The criteria changes from state to state. In YOUR state perhaps it may be that buffoonish, but not in most.
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
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wrote:

Yes. As in my example:

True. I have no "Duty to act" in this situation. That does not mean, however, that I am legally barred from stopping the criminal waving a gun at me and others. It doesn't mean that I have to wait for him to shoot someone, or me, before I stop him.

By the time the police show up, the situation is over, and the survivors know who the bad guy with the gun was, and the good guy with the gun was.

I've told you already, a couple of times, but you seem to be clue-resistant on the topic in general, and that answer specifically. I live in Wisconsin, where our idiot governor James Doyle values the safety of criminals over the safety of law-abiding citizens. I can't _GET_ a CCW permit here. Yet.
Why do you pretend that's relevant to having an informed opinion, by the way?
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 18:06:45 -0600, cavelamb himself

Moi? Im a harmless, lovable fuzzball. Everybody says so!
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 23:54:20 -0600, Don Foreman

I'll add to this that I almost never carry because I feel no need to do so, but if I were to attend Karl's meeting where a telephone threat had been made, I'd be armed. I'd be real glad to see a deputy sheriff present upon my arrival at the meeting.
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On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 12:54:27 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools

Karl would have told me. DUH!

Do you supppose it wasn't discussed?

You seem to make a lot of assertions and assurances that are totally incorrect and utterly baseless.

Ooo-kay, yoo betcha. T'ink it'll snow? They say it might. Basketball tournament comin' up, ya know. I'm t'inkin' iceout first week of April, whaddabout you? Have a nice day, say hi to the missus.
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On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 15:45:54 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools


I sometimes enjoy being proven wrong because then I learn and will be wiser for it. I always held that researchers might learn most from experiments that don't turn out as expected. That's sometimes when discoveries happen. That said, opinion bears no resemblence to proof. Incompetents and zeolots often have the strongest opinions because that's all they have.

Hoh, golly. Do feel free to share your concerns with the FBI, I'm sure they'd like to know if I've gone round rogue or round the bend. Be sure to spell my name correctly. I live in Fridley, MN. That'll suffice, they won't need a DOB or SSN. Your life could become less boring, ya never know. Offer them coffee and cookies if they come to visit. It's a nice gesture, appreciated even if not accepted. Feebs tend to be a bit tightass.
Ask to see their guns which might be SIGs. They'll notice that. >

Wull ya. It's "Minnesota nice" to deal with bureaucrats and obstreperous but harmless fools about the same.
The clerk at the Anoka County courthouse was actually very pleasant, personable and professional. Solitious even. She had as much of my background check on her screen as she had access to. It worked for her.
So do ya t'ink it'll snow? They say it might.
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 22:53:31 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools

For asking a hypothetical question?

Wrong on two counts.
I think authorities would see his question (when to shoot vs not shoot) as thoughtful and highly relevant.
In any case, your opinion and even that of "the authorities" is irrelevant. MN, like most states now, is a "shall issue" state. Any citizen over 21 who takes required training, has no history of criminal activity or mental defect and pays the fee shall be issued a permit.
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On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 11:00:13 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools

I see no discussion from the OP afer posting his question.

Wrong! Any suspicions or other biasses they might have are immaterial in a "shall issue" state. Denial must be supported by court record of conviction or finding of mental defect.
One sheriff who decided he was a bit above the law about issuing carry permits got sued, lost, and had to pay legal costs for both sides. http://ellegon.com/features/data/learning / He is no longer sheriff, was replaced at the next election.

They'd wonder why anyone would bother them with irrelevant trivia.

I'll bet he'll be surprised to learn that!
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Don Foreman wrote:

I don't think T M T has bothered to see who started this thread. ...lew...
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On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 19:27:13 -0600, Lew Hartswick

This is a game disguised as a debate for TMT. He likes to push hotbuttons -- he's done this before. "The gummint is going to take away your guns." WHAM, skatey-eight posts some of which try to offer information or at least informed or reasoned opinion -- but the fun is in the flames.
Now he thinks he's pushing a CCW button. That didn't work because CCW holders know better. He seems to think that an "emotional stability" inference or allegation is inflammatory, not knowing and unwilling or unable to learn how things work in shall-issue states. Most states now are shall-issue states. There's even hope for the good citizens of no-issue IL and WS with the current case before SCOTUS.
TMT has now reverted to a style of discourse more commonly seen among junior-high girls: "You're icky." "I'll tell everyone you're icky so nobody will like you." And so on. Unlike teenage girls, unfortunately, he probably won't outgrow it. I hope Karl found some useful answers to his question buried in all the chaff. It was a thoughtful and reasonable question, asked in good faith.
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On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 21:59:48 -0700 (PDT), Too_Many_Tools

Not bloody likely.
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On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 13:39:18 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, Don

He certainly meant counter-clock-wise there, Don.
Now, would you guys please stop feeding the trolls?
-- Death is more universal than life; everyone dies but not everyone lives. -- A. Sachs
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On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:40:03 -0700, Larry Jaques

Yeh yeh, OK.
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 14:21:36 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

Of course he is. He cannot summarize material that requires several hours of training into a couple of internet cites. The statutes can be confusing, and how they are customarily interpreted by prosecutors and courts is an issue.
Example: https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/bin/getpub.php?pubtype=STAT_CHAP_SEC&year 07&section`9.065
I am sure we were told that we (citizens, not police officers) may not use lethal force to defend others aside from family (in MN), though this statute certainly seems to indicate otherwise. It is certainly possible that either I or my trainers got it wrong. It is also quite possible that other statutes amplify or limit the one cited above in particular situations.
I'll definitely be checking my understanding on this next time I see my instructor at the range.
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 12:01:23 -0600, Don Foreman

There is a vast difference between "Statute Law", and its implimentation in "case law"
In California, protecting others is quite kosher.
Gunner
"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.
Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner
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On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 10:36:50 -0700, Gunner Asch

That's probably the source of confusion -- and knowing how that works doesn't come from websites. It comes from people who know the regional lay of the legal land. What might be OK in Meeker County, MN could well land yer ass in the slammer about 50 miles east in Minneapolis. Unwritten and unofficial but practiced policy in Mnpls (aside from inside one's own domocile or place of business) is: "arrest the gun(s)". All of them, permits or not. Let the prosecutors and lawyers sort things out.
CCW training is best done by local people with applicable local knowledge and experience. "Awright, now here's how things really work around here so pay attention."
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You're still missing the point, by supposing that I, or Dave, are asking for all possible cites to prove his claims; one would be enough, but he can't manage even that.
--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)
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Doug Miller wrote:

Doug,
It's not a CAN'T situation. I could sit here and type for a few hours.
I've simply lost interest in arguing with you.
So, you win.
Richard
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