OT: when to shoot back

One out of 50 states does not equal Most

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

Moron. He lives in a state that _doesn't_issue_ CCW permits.

Don, I think you're missing the point. Richard has made some very sweeping claims which amount to "Dave would be in the wrong, always and everywhere". Dave challenges those claims and asks Richard to back them up. Richard is, of course, unable to do so.

Youmean like this one?

Sorry, Yes.

That is NOT your job in this situation.

You pull a gun out, and now YOU are acting aggressive - adn there are TWO raving maniacs in the room.

And the legal ai\uthorities have every right to tap YOU. (So, no, you didn't live to participate).

Tell me, Dave, Do you have a carry permit?

Richard

Son..not only are you using a broad brush, but a large paint roller.

You are so far off the beam in most of your postings as to be ludicrious.

Ive mentioned before that I too am an ex cop (California) and give firearms training. And I have one of those rare California CCWs, 28 yrs and counting so far.

The criteria changes from state to state. In YOUR state perhaps it may be that buffoonish, but not in most.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

There is a vast difference between "Statute Law", and its implimentation in "case law"

In California, protecting others is quite kosher.

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

Of course he is. He cannot summarize material that requires several hours of training into a couple of internet cites. The statutes can be confusing, and how they are customarily interpreted by prosecutors and courts is an issue.

Example:

I am sure we were told that we (citizens, not police officers) may not use lethal force to defend others aside from family (in MN), though this statute certainly seems to indicate otherwise. It is certainly possible that either I or my trainers got it wrong. It is also quite possible that other statutes amplify or limit the one cited above in particular situations.

I'll definitely be checking my understanding on this next time I see my instructor at the range.

Yes. As in my example:

True. I have no "Duty to act" in this situation. That does not mean, however, that I am legally barred from stopping the criminal waving a gun at me and others. It doesn't mean that I have to wait for him to shoot someone, or me, before I stop him.

By the time the police show up, the situation is over, and the survivors know who the bad guy with the gun was, and the good guy with the gun was.

I've told you already, a couple of times, but you seem to be clue-resistant on the topic in general, and that answer specifically. I live in Wisconsin, where our idiot governor James Doyle values the safety of criminals over the safety of law-abiding citizens. I can't _GET_ a CCW permit here. Yet.

Why do you pretend that's relevant to having an informed opinion, by the way?

Welcome to Usenet. There's this thing called a discussion, where the original point is often refined, expanded on, and so on. Do try to keep up.

That's 1. How about the other 49? "castle doctrine" might be useful in your search.

Yes, I'm familiar with the flawed concept.

So tell me - whose side ARE you on?

Hypothetical situation. Yes, it's a topic drift, deal with it. Let's say you saw someone attempting to set fire to an occupied building. Would you stop them? Would you be right to stop them?

How is that different than that same guy threatening people with a gun in the same building?

Ah. You seemed to be making a blanket statement above, with that last sentence in what I quoted.

But if I'm out with the famliy, then I can't legally defend them? Or does it only apply to strangers, I have to watch THEM get shot, what's the exact deal there?

That's probably the source of confusion -- and knowing how that works doesn't come from websites. It comes from people who know the regional lay of the legal land. What might be OK in Meeker County, MN could well land yer ass in the slammer about 50 miles east in Minneapolis. Unwritten and unofficial but practiced policy in Mnpls (aside from inside one's own domocile or place of business) is: "arrest the gun(s)". All of them, permits or not. Let the prosecutors and lawyers sort things out.

CCW training is best done by local people with applicable local knowledge and experience. "Awright, now here's how things really work around here so pay attention."

A permit holder in MN may defend self and family when out and about. It is not necessary to wait for an assailant to shoot first. In fact it's quite foolish to do so. The criterion is immediate threat of grave bodily harm, with the caveat that one's decision at the moment is subject to review after the fact by people who were not present.

I think it might go slightly beyond immediate family but that never was clear to me other than it does NOT include strangers or the public in general. As Gunner has noted, things do depend some on region even within a state, e.g. the attitudes of local prosecutors and L.E. I am not about to risk my freedom to defend others who choose to be unable to defend themselves, some of whom would rather I not be able to defend myself either. They'll just have to hope that a cop is available when they need one. I am not a cop and don't want to be.

I don't know what the story is in Wisconsin.

Doug,

It's not a CAN'T situation. I could sit here and type for a few hours.

I've simply lost interest in arguing with you.

So, you win.

Richard

You're still missing the point, by supposing that I, or Dave, are asking for all possible cites to prove his claims; one would be enough, but he can't manage even that.

Moi? Im a harmless, lovable fuzzball. Everybody says so!

Gunner

"Pax Americana is a philosophy. Hardly an empire. Making sure other people play nice and dont kill each other (and us) off in job lots is hardly empire building, particularly when you give them self determination under "play nice" rules.

Think of it as having your older brother knock the shit out of you for torturing the cat." Gunner

I'll add to this that I almost never carry because I feel no need to do so, but if I were to attend Karl's meeting where a telephone threat had been made, I'd be armed. I'd be real glad to see a deputy sheriff present upon my arrival at the meeting.

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 22:37:45 -0700, with neither quill nor qualm, Gunner Asch quickly quoth:

Then why must you and others give him (and other trolls) air time, hmm? --== Plonk him and forget him, please. ==--

-- Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. -- Thomas Jefferson