Stupidity of design. Rant Warning!

On Tuesday, May 16, 2017 at 10:17:24 AM UTC-4, Secret Unnamed Track wrote:


You have to adjust for windage. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress

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On Monday, May 15, 2017 at 3:39:50 PM UTC+2, Terry Coombs wrote:

than me.

I am not trying to get anyone's fur up here. I guess I should have posted i n a different forum. I ask again, 1: Do you really use a 14mm socket? Do yo u actually encounter 14mm hex heads? Give me one example. If you are substi tuting it for a 9/16" then you should say so. That is not something which w ould come up in metric countries, and does not apply to my premise. Also to do so would be slovenly. Like using a Phillips tip to drive a Pozi screw. Real slop. If I did things like that, I wouldn't confess it on a public for um.
2. Where you need more torque for a <15mm head than you can get from a 1/4 drive ratchet? I drive old Alfa-Romeos and Saabs, so please don't try to te ll me rust and frozen bolt stories. My cheap 1/4 drive kit is probably made in China, but it is still completely intact after many years. I naturally don't use it for serious suspension or exhaust work, but it gets almost all car and bike work done.
The whole point I was making is that the sellers don't consider the custome r's needs. I guess I am alone, though. No one else seems to give a fuck.
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On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:23:09 -0700 (PDT), robobass
Yes

Yes

Both rear engine mounting bolts on my bike. (Yamaha FJR)
14mm isn't uncommon. Here are a couple. https://www.fastenal.com/products/details/11120395 http://www.ebay.com/itm/Banjo-bolt-washers-Bolt-10-X-1-25-Thread-Bolt-head-14mm-/151364592863?hash=item233e0864df:g:v3AAAOSwdpxUW76O&vxp=mtr
And you'll find it here in the JIS column. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/metric-bolt-head-wrench-size-d_1458.html
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On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:23:09 -0700 (PDT), robobass

I have two Toyota vehicles. One a 1990s truck and the other a 2006 Scion Xb. Both use 14mm hex head fasteners. Eric
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On 5/15/2017 10:23 AM, robobass wrote:

Oh Holy one ... are you saying you NEVER EVER used a screwdriver to - for instance - pry the lid off a paint can ?? As far as an example , the oil drain plug on my '99 Toyota 4Runner is 14 mm .

Head bolts and suspension components both use some 15mm bolts . I'd use a 1/4" drive on neither .

No , you're not alone . And sellers MUST consider buyer's needs/wants . If they ain't buyin' there's no sense in trying to sell a particular item . Oh , and this is appropriate for this forum - and my fur ain't up , I'm just expressing my opinion ...
--
Snag
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wrote:

It's nobody elses fault but his own that he bought a JIS socket set to work on DIN standard or ISO/ANSI standard vehicles.
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On Mon, 15 May 2017 08:23:09 -0700 (PDT), robobass

14 mm socket to remove exhaust nuts on Toyotas - your 1/4 drive set would never stand up to that. Every 10mm bolt on every japanese or Korean car ever built uses 14mm heads. (JIS standard)
Between all the standards, there are no 9, 20, 23, 25, 26, 28 or 29 mm hex heads . All the other sized are used.
ANSI and ISO use 7,8,10,153,16,18,21,24 and 30. DIN uses 7,8,10,11,13,17,19,22,24,27 and 30 JIS uses 7,8,10,12,14,17,19 and 22
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On Mon, 15 May 2017 15:06:20 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Exhaust bolts? Even with Kroil, a 1/2" impact extension and socket would have trouble. <g>
--



--Robert Knight, senior fellow, American Civil Rights Union

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I'm essentially retired, but in the late 60s, back when "foreign car" meant something and shops that worked on N. American marques shunned them, I worken on foreign cars.
Perhaps half were Volkawagen. The remainder included Borgward, DAF, Alpha Romero, Panhard [1], Fiat, Mercedes, Porsche, Renault, Amphicar, Lancia, Saab, Volvo as well as a very heterogeneous mix of British [2] cars. Never saw a single Japanese car. (College town, y'know? Lot of eccentrics and we were the only folks who could work on their eccentric cars.)
Now, 50 years on, I don't recall exactly which bolts or nuts were 14mm but my 14mm 1/2" drive socket and my 14mm boxend & openend wrenches show a lot of wear. Valve adjustment screw locking nut on 60s VW engines? Yeah, I think so.
The only specific item I can think of just now is a locking bolt on my 4" metal-cutting bandsaw. But all that wear came from came from the auto work.
Of course, all the cars I worked on were made before you were born. Maybe some standards or conventional choices have changed.
[1] I actually owned a 2-cyl air-cooled flat-opposed, front wheel drive Panhard for awhile. Very cool car. Would like to have ralleyed it. Swapped it even for a McCulloch chain saw.
[2] Yes, I even have a few Whitworth wrenches, solely because of Whitworth nuts on some Brit starter motor power cable studs.
--
Mike Spencer Nova Scotia, Canada

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On 15 May 2017 20:21:45 -0300, Mike Spencer

Likewise - I was about the only mechanic in town who'd work on a bug - or an austin, or a borgward, or a vauxhaul (other than the GM dealership who had one guy who worked on them), Datsuns, and Toyotas.
I left town to work at a Toyota dealership, then returned to work at the new Mazda dealership (also AMC/Jeep/International Trucks)
I drove an old Mini in the early years.

Nope. The valve lash adjusters on Beetles from '54 to '77 for sure were 13mm. I think my '49 was as well.

Depends on who you are talking to ----

My dad drove a 3 cyl 2 stroke DKW Scnellaster for a while, as well as an Envoy CA. My older brother had a Vauxhaul Victor Special and a Viva HA, as well as a Rover 2000TC, as well as the R12 Rallye car. Younger brothers had Sunbeam Arrow coupe, Sunbeam Minx/arrow sedan,and a few other oddities, while I had the '49 beetle, Peugeot 204, Vauxhaul HC Firenza,and even drove a Sunbeam Alpine for a while, as well as a TR7 and an MGB. Lots of "european" cars - along with some Japs and a whole handfull of 'merican iron going all the way back to a '28 Chevy National Landau.
Wrenched on every one of them except the DKW.
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wrote:

Is this one of your imagined $100 an hour projects? Where you make all the imagined $1,000's that you talk about when in reality you can't make enough money to pay your $100 tax bill.
Rather than gunner's ass wouldn't it be more honest to label yourself "Lying Weiber"
--
Cheers,

Schweik
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wrote:

Where do you and the dogs sleep amongst all that alleged stuff? The Amazing Wieber and the Sheraton Caravan remind me of this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHUSx2p4Td8

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On Mon, 15 May 2017 05:59:37 -0700 (PDT), robobass

I experimented with my Bosch 14.4v Impactor (1/4" hex drive) and a 13/16" (metric equiv: 21mm) socket and successfully removed my F-150 wheel. That's 90 foot pounds of torque to install, usually up to 120ft/lb to remove. I'd say that 1/4" can handle a 14mm socket's demands, although I did put a twist in an HF 1/4hex-3/8square adaptor once building a porch. Those 1/2"x8" galv bolts going into 1902 wood beams under the house were tough, even though I drilled pilot holes. That took the larger of my drills to accomplish, but I got the holes drilled and the ledger board installed properly with the impactor. The adaptor twisted about 20-degrees from the repeated hammering. Wow!
--



--Robert Knight, senior fellow, American Civil Rights Union

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On Mon, 15 May 2017 10:20:50 -0700, Larry Jaques

That is an IMPACT load, not a steady torque. Take your torque wrench and a few adapters, and adapt down to 1/4 drive and try torquing the wheel nut to 95 ft lbs.
The "generally accepted safe load" on a 1/4" drive is 300 inch lbs - which comes out to about 25 ft lbs.
Snappy has a 9 inch 1/4 drive ratchet that is apparently good for up to 90 ft lbs. That will put a LOT of twist into a 10 inch 1/4 drive extention!!!!
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On Mon, 15 May 2017 15:41:03 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Are you possibly confusing bolt torque with tool capacity? That sounds more like thread limits than tool limits to me.
The actual tested loading is probably 9x your GASL. For manual tool use, I generally use the tool I know will not break for that use. When I feel an extension flex, I move up to the next size. It seldom happens, but why take the chance? Breaker bars are pretty much the only tool I use which will be pushed into that flex mode. If I know something is tight but easy to move once it's broken free, I might take both 1/4" and 1/2" drive sets to the task. I'll break 'em all free with the 1/2" ratchet/breaker and spin 'em off with the 1/4" ratchet, spinner, or 3/8" air ratchet/butterfly.

And I bet it would give a good lifetime, too.
--



--Robert Knight, senior fellow, American Civil Rights Union

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I presented this badly. what I mean to say is that with lots of things I bu y, I encounter incredibly stupid design decisions. Maybe it makes the produ ct look better, or seem better at first glance, but once you use the produc t it is quickly obvious that functionality was not the priority.
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On Mon, 15 May 2017 05:12:03 -0700 (PDT), robobass
I have a feeling that many 'sets' are put together by people who have no idea of their use or practicality of the design, as you said.
A 14mm socket will double for 9/16" if used on SAE hardware.
Larger sizes, 15 17 19 are common, but I had to buy a 18mm for use on some of the first Chevy front ends back in the early '80s.
My parents bought a Craftsman rollaway toolset when I got my diploma from UTI in '72. In it was a set like you show, but the main difference was the spinner. It had a screwdriver handle with a 1/4" square end. The thing I really liked about that set was the spinner had an inset 1/4" square socket in the back. I can't tell you how many times I praised the guy who thought that up, because running hard-to-spin nuts down or properly torquing hardware with the spinner handle is much harder with a spinner and quite easy with the ratchet on the back end. It's one of the few things I praised Crapsman for, because a decade later, I had lost a literal pound of flesh and bucket of blood from their tools disintegrating within my grasp as I worked. At that point, I was using power tools only half the time since some of the angles you work at in the auto industry prevents you from seeing the bolt you're working on and there's no room for power. So, when you're giving it everything you have and the tool breaks, your hands move quickly into sharp and immovable objects, before you can pull them back. I had one lady come into the shop one day while I was putting gauze on my hand and heard her scream to the manager about the blood on the engine of her car. He found me in the bathroom with the first aid kit open and tols her "He'll wipe it off after he's done treating his wound." and he walked away. I looked up, she looked away, and we heard no more screeching that day. (Until I got to Searz and slammed the broken ratchet down on the counter with my good hand.) That was one day I got no shit from them about "intentionally breaking tools". How's that for the Searz "Satisfaction Guarantee"?
When I went to Searz to replace that special spinner, they tried to foist off a single ended POS on me. I went to the manager at that Sears store and he wouln't budge, saying "We don't make those any more. Take it or leave it." Since he also had not given me a money back offer, I took it to Corporate. 20 minutes later, I finally got a guy from India on the Searz Customer Service line (one of the earliest displays of outsourcing CS I had seen) who finally had a check for $12 cut for me. I looked high and low for that replacement and only one company made them, Carlyle. Almost a 3 weeks later, I found it and picked one up at NAPA Auto Parts. NM64 is the part number, in case anyone is interested. (Hmm, now CHT DH14, but NM64 gets you there.)
I had trouble with the name "spinner handle", as half the mfgrs call the brace shape their spinner and half called them "speed handles".
Some designs just WORK! So there's the other half of this story, Rob.
--
The Federal budget is a complex document. However, working
for a President committed to keeping his promises means my
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On Mon, 15 May 2017 06:22:47 -0700, Larry Jaques

You were obviously not using the right tools. In over 25 years of using mostly Craftsman tools in the trade I don't think I broke more than 2 or 3 sockets, no extensions, ratchets, or "johnson bars". I always used the largest drive that would do the job if things looked like they would get tough. I still have the vast majority of my Craftsman tools purchaced in 1969. 1/4 inch drive tools were only used for bench work on alternators and starters and other similar stuff, or in cramped quarters under the dash, etc. 3/8 for all the normal little stuff, and almost exclusively 1/2 inch on all chassis stuff.
Gotta use the right tools for the job. A classmate of mine bought "snap-off" tools at the same time I bough my Craftsman, and he had replaced well over half by the time he finished his apprenticeship. The only advantage to the SO tools was "Snappy" came to the shop in his shiny truck aevery week or two to replace the broken crap, where I had to drive to sears every 6 months to 2 years.

Williams, SK and Proto still make "fat handle extensions" in the guize of nut-spinners. Personally, I use extentions for extensions, and a "door knob" ratchet for a spinner. My "door knob" for the last 50 years has been an SK. I just bought a 3/8 and a 1/2 inch from Princess Auto a few years ago.

Yup.
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On Mon, 15 May 2017 11:56:52 -0400, snipped-for-privacy@snyder.on.ca wrote:

Sorry, clare, but you're flat wrong. I was taught by my father to properly use and care for tools. It was reinforced by my schooling at Universal Technical Institute.

Most of it was hand use of 1/2" sockets and ratchets. I think I did lose a 3/8 extension once, but it was for a lost ball. It wouldn't keep the socket on it.
I wore out the 1/2" ratchet, and when I replaced it, I was given cheap Chinese crap. This is when Searz first started sourcing Crapsman tools offshore, circa 1979-1980. My toolset was a decade old, and most of the steel was good. But once they wore out or broke, the replacements were all shit. I was driving to Searz twice a week sometimes. The crap sockets would split cleanly in half with a POP. Ratchets would lose their teeth and I'd lose knuckles and red stuff. I wasn't abusing tools. I was abusing myself by using what Crapsman got when it changed tool sources.

As do I. I've worn out a couple 3/8 and 1/4 ratchets, but lifetime guarantee is lifetime guarantee. I had to fight the tool managers and store managers over some of them, but I always showed them the square drive socket ends and NEVER could they see power tool abuse on and of them. I worked for a body shop and did a lot of tough jobs regular mechanics wouldn't. When I worked on the A111 rack, I used hand tools on the suspension to prevent damage to the wheel sensors.
And some of the stuff I replaced was from wear. The problem was that when I wore something out at that time, it was replaced with stuff so cheap that Harbor Fright would never deign to sell it. I often talked the managers into replacing the 12pt sockets with 6pt (the 3rd or 4th time), and I guess they were made either with real steel or by another mfgr, as I never had to replace them again.

Unreal! How did he manage that? When I first got my pneumatic tools, I was told that the chrome sockets would not hold up to them for long, so I bought specific impact sockets and extensions for the heavy stuff and the sockets I most often used with the pneumatics. But I still used the chrome sockets with the butterfly 3/8" and air ratchet and had no trouble.

You got lucky and never broke anything while they were sourcing shit. I think it cost them so much the first year, they quickly resourced and got real steel tools after that, because my problems finally stopped. But I'd lost a shitload of skin and blood over it, and I'm still mad as hell at them for it. I also sourced replacement tools from SnapOn (still cringing at the prices), Cornwall, and MAC.
--



--Robert Knight, senior fellow, American Civil Rights Union

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On Mon, 15 May 2017 10:51:23 -0700, Larry Jaques

I think that like Craftsman, Snappy got a bad batch - something wrong with the alloy or the heat treat - Likely they put together a cheap set as a "starter set" and it didn't stand up.
I'll bet there was only a short timeframe when the craftsman stuff was really crappy.

I'll bet Ken is still really pissed at Snap-On too.
I bought a fair bit of Herbrand tools in later years (sadly they are gone now too) and some SK and Proto - only a very few of the grossly overpriced snap-on (generally specialty stuff no one else had when I needed it)
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