Union Millwrights

Hi Ron,

The reasons for peoples thoughts and actions are based on their own life experiences. Your union experience (and mine) have been positive while many are negative; I'm sure you won't deny there are many of the later.

Some people are driven by personal fear which is indicated by what appears to be greed, but is not. In fact, I believe on this newsgroup (may have been another?) someone stated that any extra profit he could eak (sp?) out of his business would definitly not be going to any of the people working for him. So his attitude would be: All, or as much as possible for me, and as little as possible for the people working for me. Sounds like the exact reason why unions were, and are, needed.

I agree with your conclusions concerning the effects of having no unions; my guess is we will soon be at or near many of the bench- marks from the turn of the 19th century: In fact in many areas today, where employers are allowed to cheat immigrants, we see this hap- pening now. Is anyone so naive as to believe this will not thrive without unions (as it seems government control seems to be strongly in favor of such underhanded dealings)?

People seem to have forgotten (if they ever knew thanks to the dep- lorable conditions of many school systems) the working conditions of ALL workers, (except, marginally, those who were members of some guilds) before the advent of unions made it possible for the common man to negotiate for a decent wage. If they remember some history they "don't believe it can happen here-and-now", ignoring the jobs sent overseas, the influx of foriegn, un-tarrifed (or close enough so it doesn't count) goods.

I'm afraid your darkest fears will be realized. Mostly because of slave-wage foreign competition the living conditions of the Amer- ican worker are headed downward, while at the same time exec- utive wages are jumping to all-time highs.

Makes you wonder why people can't see the obvious.

dennis in nca compitition

Hi Ron,

The reasons for peoples thoughts and actions are based on their own life experiences. Your union experience (and mine) have been positive while many are negative; I'm sure you won't deny there are many of the later.

Some people are driven by personal fear which is indicated by what appears to be greed, but is not. In fact, I believe on this newsgroup (may have been another?) someone stated that any extra profit he could eak (sp?) out of his business would definitly not be going to any of the people working for him. So his attitude would be: All, or as much as possible for me, and as little as possible for the people working for me. Sounds like the exact reason why unions were, and are, needed.

I agree with your conclusions concerning the effects of having no unions; my guess is we will soon be at or near many of the bench- marks from the turn of the 19th century: In fact in many areas today, where employers are allowed to cheat immigrants, we see this hap- pening now. Is anyone so naive as to believe this will not thrive without unions (as it seems government control seems to be strongly in favor of such underhanded dealings)?

People seem to have forgotten (if they ever knew thanks to the dep- lorable conditions of many school systems) the working conditions of ALL workers, (except, marginally, those who were members of some guilds) before the advent of unions made it possible for the common man to negotiate for a decent wage. If they remember some history they "don't believe it can happen here-and-now", ignoring the jobs sent overseas, the influx of foriegn, un-tarrifed (or close enough so it doesn't count) goods.

I'm afraid your darkest fears will be realized. Mostly because of slave-wage foreign competition the living conditions of the Amer- ican worker are headed downward, while at the same time exec- utive wages are jumping to all-time highs.

Makes you wonder why people can't see the obvious.

dennis in nca

Each generation has feared for their children, and each generation has somehow survived it all. How long can it go on? I don't know. If you're into ancient prophecy, not long. If you're into reality, not long. We're not between a rock and a hard place re: fossil fuels. We are in the crusher. We are not between a rock and a hard place re: planet degradation. We are in the crusher.

My only personal consolation is that I know I don't have a long time left, and that I have made peace with my own belief system. (Hope that is PC enough for you sticklers.)

I do fear much for my children. And my grandchildren.

I have enough for my lifetime, and enough to leave some for the next. Until then, it can do what it wants. I don't give a f*ck. All these liberals and idiots can wallow in what they have created.

Enjoy.

Steve

Our labor unions are not narrow, self-seeking groups. They have raised wages, shortened hours, and provided supplemental benefits. Through collective bargaining and grievance procedures, they have brought justice and democracy to the shop floor. President John F. Kennedy, 1962

All Doctors belong to the Medical Association.. Guess what? That is a Union.. Millwright Ron

You either do not know very many really hard workers or you are a liar. Some people will lie about anything. Especially if the can lie and make a bonus or get some else's job. Over the last 35 years as a supervisor of Union Millwrights I have had some really bad ones and I fired them. The biggest majority were hard working individuals who were proud of their Trade and It showed. They made money for the company that they worked for, they did it safe and they did it in a timely manner.

Non-producers,liars and trouble makers did not last long on my jobs.

Millwright Ron

Yes, that may be true, but a w**re, by any other name, is still a w**re.

Harold

Sorry mate, that just isn't true. When was the last time you say the AMA take their membership out on strike for higher wages?

Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:displayed e-mail address is a spam trap)

To be pedantic, the AMA most resembles a Medieval Guild, not a union.

Joe Gwinn

MR, As a physician, I can tell you that the American Medical Association is NOT a union and doctors DO NOT have to join. Given the definition above, and granting that this is your understanding of a union, I can assure you that it is one of the most inept and impractical of associations. As a practical matter, our hours have increased, our wages have dramatically decreased, no one protects poorly-trained doctors. There is no collective bargaining, no union benefits, no strike protections. The AMA is not what you think it is!

Rich

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Union definition: "A combination so formed, especially an alliance or confederation of people, parties, or political entities for mutual interest or benefit"

I did not say they you are required to join a union or an association or to pay dues to a union or association. But if you do join.....You meet the requirements above.. Also it does not have to be a good union or association and it can be as you say"it is one of the most inept and impractical of associations". It is an association. Therefore Its meets the minimum requirements.

On Thu, 08 Nov 2007 09:24:17 GMT, with neither quill nor qualm, "Harold and Susan Vordos" quickly quoth:

They're also a heavy good-old-boy network who looks out for its own, even if the fidiot they're protecting kills again and again.

----------------------------------------------------------------- When I die, I'm leaving my body to science fiction. --Steven Wright ----------------------------

I could never be in a position where I worked for the union and the sent me to a job. That is the lowest form of deprivation possible and takes all iniative away from the workers.

Funny, my dictionary gives the following among others:

An organization of employees formed to bargain with the employer

For Association it says, among others:

A formal organization of people or groups of people

Sounds different to me.

Bruce-in-Bangkok (Note:remove underscores from address for reply)

You couldn't stand the competition?

=========== I would be more inclined to suggest they bought a suit and went into management, but that's just my perspective....

Unka' George [George McDuffee] ============ Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains.

Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826), U.S. president. Letter, 17 March 1814.

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:11:17 -0600, with neither quill nor qualm, F. George McDuffee quickly quoth:

I just read a passage in my current book which felt like that.

After Zaa has said something remarkably savvy... Jeff: "How come I'm the administrator and you're the maintenance guy?" Zaa: "Simple. You're not smart enough for maintenance."

Now, would you guys please plonk this troll and move on?

-- Real freedom lies in wildness, not in civilization. -- Charles Lindbergh

What book would this be?

Jon

On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 09:30:06 -0800, with neither quill nor qualm, Jon Anderson quickly quoth:

It's a compilation of short SF stories from 2003 titled _Year's Best SF8_. The story is called "Shields of Mars" by Gene Wolfe. Another really good one is "Geropods" by Robert Onopa. I had tears of laughter from that one. Read it to your parents. ;)

-- Real freedom lies in wildness, not in civilization. -- Charles Lindbergh

It alway killed me, when interviewing prospective service dept. employees for our N/C machinery manufacturing facility, how many office types thought they could master the position when it was obvious they had nowhere near the skill level to do so. Many touted their vast "experience" at managing groups of people in associated areas, but were unable to answer the simplest of technical questions, were they electrical, mechanical, pneumatic, or hydraulic.

I always thought it was a "generation" issue because most of the truly qualified applicants were older but soon revised my thinking when I found a source of people willing to learn at the local Junior College.

I can guarentee you the answer: "Simple. You're not smart enough for maintenance" is not necessarily out-of-line.

dennis in nca