Rust prevention in the workshop

Airy R. Bean posted the following in uk.rec.models.engineering:


The next time you try a 'thought experiment', try putting in some thought - preferably early on in the process.

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Another emotional outburst from you that gives the lie to your claim to be scientific?
Grow up, Mike!

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If you find yourself in environments where the oxygen is liquid, then I suggest that it is not the oxygen that will kill you - you will be already dead from the cold!
There would, however, be one advantage for this thread from such a cold temperature, and that is that all the water (whether originating as vapour or as moisture) will have condensed and long since frozen solid to a very dry state.!
PS. For those with uncontrollable neurotic and obsessive furies - the above is just clubman's chit-chat; the stuff of lineside meetings of model-engineers, and not some scientific discourse to be leapt upon and torn apart by teeth especially sharpened for the purpose. (Why do those who behave as such in this NG bring to mind the loonies who pounce upon and stab or shoot innocent bystanders in the local park?)

would
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PS. One (if not already dead) had better be careful about bumping into one's beloved machines at such temperatures - the various castings making them up might easily be shattered by the impact!
PPS. This is not a troll nor is it a scientific discourse to be seized upon by the angry and obsessive loony; it is merely a bit of clubman's chit-chat offered in a humorous vein!

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Gareth, for it is Gareth isn't it, you have stated many times that one thing that distinguishes a technician from an engineer is technical accuracy.
So you are clearly not an engineer. A model technician perhaps? Does a model technician fettle castings?
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On Thu, 09 Sep 2004 17:38:25 +0100, Nimrod wrote:

No. He just complains that they are bad and that a well respected firm is rubbish.
--
Neil
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John Kneeshaw wrote:

The water from dehumidifiers is extremely yucky, it has dust and bacteria and other condensed gunk from the air in it.
Think "melted frost from a fridge" and you'll get some idea.
--
Peter Fairbrother


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You don't keep your fridge very clean, then?

Bean,
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Sure Peter, But if you live in Cambs like me, I don't think the dust or the odd atmospheric commensal bacterium will sludge up the tubes as much as our limescale does. Keep making the swarf. John
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You seem to be somewhat confused. What you have annotated as, "Statement 1" and "Statement 2" refer to the air in the heat exchanger inside the unit
What you have annotated as "Statement 3" refers to the air in the rest of the building, outside of the unit.
(Consider, for example, the air conditioner in your car - when it is in action, the first operation is to cool the air, to cause the moisture to condense out, and then, if in a winter scenario, the second operation is to warm the air before passing it into the passenger compartment. So, even though you were confused in your rush to be triumphant and as a result of which you misunderstood what was written in front of you, it is possible for an air conditioner to both cool and heat the same air, although this was not what I was describing.)
What you have annotated as, "Statement 2" is correct and refers to the reduced capacity for holding moisture by cool air as compared to warm air.
Your determination to be confrontational seems to have overcome your common sense, OM.

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Airy R. Bean posted the following in uk.rec.models.engineering: You originally said "...dehumidifiers remove, or "consume" heat from the air which is thereby cooled. If there is a high moisture content in that air, the air becomes saturated and the moisture condenses out. The heat so consumed and ultimately released from the refrigeration cycle, together with any heat from the operation of the motor/compressor should act to warm up the shed"
And where, in whatever process is going on, is the heat 'consumed'? What mechanism 'consumes' it? When it has been 'consumed', what is it trransformed to? And why, later, does it reappear as heat 'for the shed'? Kindly explain the mechanisms and principles.
Your statement "...If there is a high moisture content in that air, the air becomes saturated and the moisture condenses out..." is wrong, as a high moisture content is merely a high moisture content, and accomplishes nothing on its own. Saturated air may, or may not, condense out. I'm sorry to say that your statement is illogical. But as it appears to lie at the heart of your misunderstanding of the mechanisms involved in dehumidification, it needs to be addressed. That is why I ask you above to elucidate the mechanisms.

This is a red herring. It serves only to reinforce the impression that you are confused about how a dehumidifier works. I suggest again that you work out each of the mechanisms involved, and you will see where things have gone wrong. The key is to start with your assertion about moisture content.
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I really just put it down to a typo, did it really need all this sniping?
Or was it just because it was directed at one particular person?
Personally I couldn't give a monkeys, but its amazing to see how many of you will dangle on a little bit of bait, and will rise to the slightest provocation.
There again, I had a closer look at my de-humidifier.
Doesn't the WARM moisture laden air pass over a chilled matrix, thereby CHILLING the air and causing the moisture to condense and freeze on to its surface?
Doesn't that same air then exit the unit at a lower temperature?
Surely this means that the unit has absorbed some of the heat in the air.
The strange thing is, I don't have any rust in my workshop, the condensate, passed through a standard wine filter has a TDS count only slightly higher than my reverse osmosis unit, so is ideal for boilers, batteries, irons etc.
And, I only need marginal background heating during the winter because the heated air from the defrost cycle is circulated around the workshop.

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That seems pretty much what I was saying.
As you were saying, what's the point of the sniping?
I've no idea.
Someone, somewhere has got a bee in their bonnet, an irrelevant bee I think.

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I think that you're a bit obsessed by something or other.
The purpose of this thread is to alert subscribers to the NG of the availability of dehumidifers in Homebase.
I don't think that your obsession below is contributing in any way to the thread - I am not in cognitive dissonance with anything that I have posted on the matter = my explanations suit me and, I guess, are good enough for other model engineers.
Pedantic nit-picking such as you adopt below is pretty pointless.

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Airy R. Bean posted the following in uk.rec.models.engineering:

You could have done that via a simple message about the availability of dehumidifiers.
You chose to include mumbo-jumbo dressed as science to offer an incorrect 'explanation' of something when none was needed. You thereby alerted people to the fact you know nothing about the science of dehumidifiers, and consequently shot yourself in the foot.
Next time, just post the message and forget about the 'explanation'.
Or just not posting at all might be the best course for you.
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Perhaps the underlying motivation that is driving your posts is revealed by the rather silly and childish tirade that you have contributed below?
The original message of this thread was exactly as you suggest below, but you seem to have become excessively emotionally disturbed by the accompanying clubman's chit-chat.
Whether the condensate has come from a vapour or has come from airborne moisture is irrelevant, because both are extracted from the air that is presented to the chilled surface of the dehumidifier and result in a drier air environment and reduced rust in the workshop.
Your emotional protests are irrelevant.
I dispute your claim that I attempted to present a scientific thesis - I merely dropped in a bit of idiomatic description about what's going on. You're going to have a difficult journey through life if you leap on every snippet of conversational English and attempt to shout down your respondent because of some rather silly and childish perception that you have about science that causes you so much anxiety.
I think the only shooting-in-the-foot is on your part - by jumping in with both feet (if I may be permitted to mix my metaphors) and trying to divert a gentlemanly conversation from its civilised postings into a children's playground act of sneering 'n' jeering. You did the latter, no-one responded to you and you ended up looking the complete fool that you undoubtedly are by sticking out like a sore thumb. You felt a fool and tried to save face by your silly outburst below, but you failed miserably.
To recap - this is a gentleman's thread (to which you are warmly welcomed if you can find it in yourself to behave like a gentleman) upon the availability of dehumidifiers from Homebase, accompanied by a bit of fire-side chat about the way that they work. It most definitely is not a means for those with childish forms of expression such as yourself to satisfy your psychological yearnings for attention seeking.
Grow up, Mike. .

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Airy R. Bean posted the following in uk.rec.models.engineering:

There's nothing silly about science and technology. The only silly thing is the way you chose to present yourself when pretending you know something when, clearly, you don't.

I'm being scientific. You're being a fool.

I think we all knew that. And I see you're introducing something else you know nothing about - vapour and moisture. When you're in a hole, stop digging.

I am careful to not to introdice 'emotions' as they have no place in science and technology. I wonder why you have introduced the term - to deflect attention, perhaps? Hardly a rational debating tactic.

I never used the term 'thesis'. Please stop overblowing your contribution.

You're going to have a difficult journey through life of you leap on every idiomatic expression and present it a scientific fact. In fact, it makes you look rather silly and childish. You will find you cannot shout down your opponent when challenged about your childish perceptions, without it causing you so much anxiety.

Any mature observer to this exchange will see who is 'sneering and jeering'. You have tried to save face by your silly outbursts about 'emotions' and 'idiomatic useage', but you have failed miserably.

When you behave like a gentleman - something I suspect you will find difficult - then I'm sure you will be admitted to the thread. When having a 'fireside chat', be careful about your pompous attitude, or it could easily be confused with childish attention-seeking.

Gentleman to the last, are we? I'm amazed they tolerate you on a technical group such as this.
You are a fool.

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Mike, most correspondents here seem to have decided to shun Bean in the interest of a more productive and friendly newsgroup. Works a treat! I thoroughly recommend it.
Regards,
    
--
Stephen Howard - Woodwind repairs & period restorations
http://www.shwoodwind.co.uk
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Stephen Howard's copy of Mr.Stevenson's Newsblock program appears to have failed.
It is important to correct the record, here. I started this thread to alert readers of the NG to the dehumidifiers available from Homebase. It is the person using the pseudonym of, "Mike" who initiated a rather silly and childish series of posts when he or she jumped down my throat so aggressively.
The unfriendliness and lack of productivity in this case have come from, "Mike".
I have done no more than to quietly chide her or him for her or his outbursts which were totally out of place - not unlike, it would seem, the necessity of chastising Mr.Howard in the past for similar childish outbursts, a point which continues to rile him when one considers his rather silly contribution below.....
wrote:

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Grow up, Mike.

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