Taps and Dies ?

mark Wrote:


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> thread:http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t 93651- Hide > quoted text -

At lunchtime today, 16th February, they had around 10 sets in Aldi at Meadowhall Retail Park, Sheffield. Yellow and black packaging. Didn't look up to much. I didn't really want to duplicate 90% of my cheap t&d's, plus buy another useless tap holder and die stock. I'd rather spend the cash on the real deal.
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DR_G
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well if you want quality thats cheap and new or newish ..you ain't going to find a whole set on ebay without months of looking. you're going to have to assemble a set youreself..out of taps and dies that are sold as single items on ebay
look out for spiral flute taps ..these are unlikely to be cheap crap .. and search these makers names .
Dormer Presto Goliath Lyndon Titex
also there is a good chance, if a metric die is a split die ..then its unlikely to be cheap crap either .
all the best.markj
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mark formulated the question :

Which aroused my curiosity - what is the actual purpose of the split?
I have always assumed it was to permit some adjustment of how deeply the thread was cut.
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Harry (M1BYT) (L)
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ravensworth2674 formulated the question :

If they are the same ones as they sold before, then they are only worth what you are paying for them - not a lot. That is not to suggest that all that they sell is similar.
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Harry (M1BYT) (L)
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David Littlewood Wrote:
Bob Minchin

David,
Strangely enough, Greenwood Tools used to list the exact same looking tap and die set as the ArcEuro one. Same box, screwdriver, *presumably* the same manufacturer, but it was around twice the price at Greenwood. I phoned to ask why this was, and to be honest can't rememeber the answer. I know I didn't buy a set from either place though. I notice Greenwood have stopped listing them now.
Sorry the posts here are in a strange order. I think it's something to do with using RCGroups as a host. Can cause confusion and anger form what I remember of last time I asked a question, so apologies in advance!
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DR_G
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on 14/02/2010, David Littlewood supposed :

Just had one of the above sets delivered. No makers name on it, but it seems to be good to fair quality - apart from the dies not quite fitting the die holder. Just needs a little easing of of the paint around the socket I think. Other than that - satisfied.
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Harry (M1BYT) (L)
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Harry Bloomfield Wrote: > on 14/02/2010, David Littlewood supposed :

> though

> Today

Thats exactly the same one I was looking at from Greenwood tools. Might just give it a go.
Cheers for posting the info.
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DR_G
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Harry Bloomfield Wrote: > on 14/02/2010, David Littlewood supposed :

> though

> Today

Just ordered a pair of HSS sets tonight from ArcEuro. I went for the M1-M2.5 and the M3 -M12. Total price £59.85 . Hopefully they will do the job!
Thanks for the advice guys.
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DR_G
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Speaking from experience, the cheapest carbon steel taps and dies are made by cutting the thread with another tap or die and then heat treating to harden them which causes distortion to the thread profiles - money is saved by ommitting the final stage of grinding them to the correct profile. Whilst the rough threads cut with such tools are sufficient for the backstreet car repair organisations that these sets are aimed at they certainly aren't accurate enough for model engineers. Cheap carbon steel dies are often solid not split making them difficult to use.
HSS taps and dies have been more expensive because of the cost of grinding them to the correct profile but now that they are made by the million for industrial machines they are both accurate and often can be bought cheaply. Over the last few years I have bought at shows from stands of companies like Proops many HSS metric taps and dies of good quality for around a pound each. I assume that those shown on the Proops website are the same but slightly more expensive
http://www.proopsbrothers.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Taps_30.html (2nd item on the page) http://www.proopsbrothers.com/acatalog/Online_Catalogue_Dies_41.html (2nd item on page)
They are made by the million for industrial processes and thus are both accurate and cheap. The downside is that the taps come in one type rather than first, second and plug with the M1.5 to M6 having a point (used for laocating in the thread cutting grinders used to manufacture them) so are best for cutting through threads. However I have found that it is quite easy to use a bench grinder to remove the points and produce a plug tap. (I tried to purchase an M3 plug tap from my local engineering supplies Cookes in Chadwell Heath but it also had a slight point and was a lot more expensive).
Last year I bought from Chronos for around 14 pounds a set of HSS taps in a metal case there are 21 in all with 3 types each of M3, M4, M5, M6, M8, M10 and M12 which I have found are good quality. I see they are now 20pounds including VAT and postage. See: the 4th item in:
http://www.chronos.ltd.uk/acatalog/Chronos_Catalogue_Taps___Dies_Sets_153.html
Alan
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DR_G wrote:

When you go to specific items the wording is a lot more telling:
    "Taps & Dies in BRITISH-made wooden boxed sets"
At least we can still makes wooden boxes in the UK.
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Cliff Ray Wrote:

It actually says:
British-made Wooden or Metal BOXED SETS
Which, to me meant the sets were British made.
He also has a reference list which included Rolls-Royce and BP, two companies I'd expect to use the best equipment.
All very odd if you ask me.
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DR_G
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Hi Dr G, For a long time their site made a big point about "British Made" but on closer reading it seems it was the boxes that were British. I have some of their Taps and I'm afraid I was not greatly impressed with their quality of finish or cutting ability. I cannot comment on their Dies, as I don't believe that I have any. If you want "Made in the UK" you could try Lyndon, available from Tilgear or J&L and other good tool factors, they seem reasonable quality at reasonable prices. T.W.
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wrote:

I have a "Linear" HSS set, M3-M12 taps 1st 2nd and plug plus split dies. I have been very pleased with them. Tap wrench was crap and broke but I had better quality others. You may find it difficult to find a set starting at M2. (Wrte that then checked Farnell who do have a Dormer set M2 - M12 for £509!)
Good luck
Richard
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Got the Tap and Die sets yesterday - they look pretty good for the money.
One question: the first taps have flat-topped 'blunt' threads. Most first taps I've seen are sharp, but have a long ground tapered lead in.
What's the story here? Are they designed to take a very light cut? Of course it means that they can't be used without the other two taps.
Cheers,
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DR_G presented the following explanation :

I half noticed that the first time I used them, then confirmed it a couple of days ago the second time I needed them. I'm used to being able to use a second tap on thin material and providing I run the tap all the way through, the thread will be to final size.
Using these taps, the second tap (and first) produces an undersize thread - You have no choice, but to use the finish tap to get the thread to finish size. It does seem to make them easier to use, but takes a little longer.
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Harry (M1BYT) (L)
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On Sat, 27 Mar 2010 16:37:43 +0000, Harry Bloomfield wrote:

A full set of taps used to consist of three taps. 1st. A tapered tap for starting the thread and which doesn't give a full thread at the lower part of the tap. 2nd. A tapered tap that has less of a taper than the 1st. tap. 3rd. Often used to be called the finish tap because it cuts to the full thread. Using the full set sometimes takes longer but does save on broken taps and temper.
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neil
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Neil Ellwood wrote:

Interesting. I've never heard of the third tap being called a "finish" tap. Also, I've never heard of a second tap which didn't cut a finish-sized thread (after the short taper of course).
For me, the third tap was/is called a "plug" or "bottoming" tap and not only should it be fully threaded all the way to the tip (apart from a very short lead-in) but it also should have a flat end. This is so you can get the maximum finished thread in a blind hole.
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Dave Osborne wrote:

I know both types of tap sets: The usual set has the same profile and diameters on all three taps, the set mentioned here with different diameters is in Danish called "seriesnittappe" which translates into "series taps" in English. The latter type is typically used for hard and tough steels etc.
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Venlig hilsen/Best regards
Erik Olsen
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Erik Olsen wrote:

Yep, there's two types of tap sets, the usual set and the series tapset. The usual set is taper-second-bottom, the series tapset is rougher-intermediate-finisher.
I don't know of a descriptive for the usual set, afaik it came first and didn't need one, the series tapset came later and did.
Personally I prefer the usual type unless I'm tapping superalloys to tight tolerances, I find they are more useful and you don't have to use all three taps.
Telling the difference can be a bit awkward, but I find series taps are more likely to have rings on the shanks.
-- Peter Fairbrother
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