Certifying with Ellis Mountain motor?

reasons more

Prove it.

We've all heard your BS. The lack of proof speaks louder.

An exemption that isn't recognized by the ATF is useless, until a judge forces the ATF to recognize it.

expired and

Wrong. TRA was conforming to ATF's interpretation of federal law.

By whom?

circumstances).

I've been going through the regs, and it's interesting to note that smokeless powder is exempted under the same section as the PAD exemption, yet manufacturers and dealers are required to have ATF permits. There is also an exemption for black powder in that section, and again we see that manufacturers and dealers of black powder in any quantity are required to have ATF permits. So it appears that the PAD exemption applies only to users, not manufacturers or dealers.

This also kills your "born regulated" argument. You and Dave W. keep saying that requiring manufacturers of rocket motors to have ATF permits means the motors must be treated as explosives, with LEUPs required at the user level. Yet I can walk into any gun store and buy smokeless powder or black powder without a LEUP, despite the fact that both the manufacturers and dealers of smokeless/BP are required to have LEMPs and LEDPs.

Wrong again, bucko. You had a grace period and you blew it. Your grace period was yanked when you were caught backdating motors.

Yeah, but it's labeled as 12oz. h

That is evidence of vast stupidity.

Jerry

Must have been a super-secret one because by the time I was notified of the decert (by the grapevine) they were banned entirely.

What do you know that I do not?

TRA NEVER contacted me in any way about any of this. One would think if I were doing something they disapproved of and wanted me to "come into compliance" they would at some point and in some way, say so.

Never happened.

The decision was predetermined and secret.

Kosdon was notified in writing in HPR and Tripoli Report several times (aside from whatever verbal or phone conversations happened) and considering how late HPR regularly is, that means he had between one and two YEARS notice. Several forms of contact.

Big difference.

Jerry

What law compelled TRA to implement a motor approval requirement? What law would the organization have violated by doing other than what it did?

-dave w

Then why don't you start making motors again?

And start another decade of rmr rants? No thanks.

Why should they? You knew you weren't permitted to backdate motors. That wasn't a mistake or misunderstanding, it was a deliberate attempt to get around the cert rules.

You're changing the subject, Dave. "Illegal" refers to the status of the motors. Your post, quoted above, refers to illegally manufactured motors as merely "not kosher" and claims it's just an "administrative and political" issue. The fact is those motors were rejected because they were illegally manufactured, and in Jerry's case, illegal to ship too.

TRA has no obligation to certify motors that are illegally manufactured and/or illegal to ship. Certifying illegal motors may not in itself be a violation of the law, but it would taint the organization and cause it to lose credibility and standing with regulatory agencies. Not to mention that there it serves no purpose to cert motors that the org's members couldn't legally receive or use.

And HyperTek, CTI, West Coast, Propulsion Polymers, RATTWorks, LOKI Research, Ellis Mountain, SkyRipper, AMW.

The non-AT motors outweigh the AT motors in the certified lists.

So answer what HE asked.

Please do. Many reloads didn't have date stamps in the day.

many SU motors didn't have date stamps. Some on paper disks that got glue lost and replaced with blank ones.

I still disagree, they are NAR cetified. and so covered under NAR insurance.

Hum, any more then J350s needed re certified due to the mad cow syndrome spongiform ?

Bob knows much more about that then I do.

Again I disagree to that one.

Niall,

Hypertech, certified at CAR

CTI certified at CAR

AMW certified at NAR (wow why ?)

ProPoly certified at CAR

loki, skyripper certified at TRA

A gun dealer does not need a leup for Smokeless powder.

they have been told to use magazines for BP however.

some have leups, some don't, but store the bp in magazines for lare quanities for sale.

many interpretations are around state to state on the need of a leup for a gun dealer with BP.

smokless powder is on the shelf at many regular stores , no leup.

CAR has an agreement with the orgs that they'll certify the Canadian manufacturers and TRA and NAR will handle the US manufacturers. Makes sense, actually, although some of the earlier certs of these motors were done by organizations other than CAR, until CAR had their certification program in place.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter WHO certifies them. TRA, NAR and CAR all support several vendors.

The list also leaves out West Coast Hybrids (Canadian, although recognized by TRA for demo flights on some as-yet uncertified motors), RATTWorks, and at least one (possibly two) new manufacturers are in the works. Contrail is on the list of going through certification testing soon.

-Kevin

You may be correct about dealers not needing an LEDP for smokeless. The Orange Book says that permits are needed for "persons engaged in the business of importing or manufacturing smokeless powder", but it doesn't mention dealers.

For black powder, it does include dealers: "...persons engaging in the business of importing, manufacturing or dealing in black powder in any quantity must have a Federal explosives license."

Both smokeless and black powder have exemptions for users despite requiring permits for manufacturers.

BTW, the Orange Book says this about manufacturer's licenses: "A manufacturer's license is needed only by persons engaged in the business of manufacturing explosive materials for sale, distribution, or for business use. For example, persons engaged in the business of providing a blasting service using explosives of their own manufacture would be required to have a manufacturer's license. Persons who manufacture explosives for their own personal, non-business use would not need a manufacturer's license.

What I meant is that if you go to the tripoli 'certified motor' pages, you see all the manufacturers I listed as TRA certified motors. As Kevin has said, they all support a range of vendors.

Explosive materials specifically does NOT include exempt materials.