[conclusions]

It's really kind of funny. It sounds like there is a lot of hatred, but most of the time it's only posturing. It wasn't but a couple of weeks ago that big plans were being made to meet in NY and share a lot of beer. People from both sides of the issues.

Don't let it get to you.

Bob

Except 3-4 of the people on one side of the issue have now said in effect, "I'm gonna get you."

Jerry

David, I, and countless quiet others, couldn't agree with you more.

I agree.

I couldn't agree more.

snip >......If

For this reason, amongst others, I've petioned the NAR Leadership to look into the certification process and determine just what it is that we need from the process and to streamline it so that it delivers to us the minimum safe requirements.

My answer? There aren't -that- many people actually trying to keep JI and his motors out of the consumer's hands. In fact, if JI didn't post to r m r, there wouldn't be ANY hobbyists 'out to get him and his motors'. I think the NAR and TRA are a bit hesitant to certify the USR line because it doesn't just quite seem right. The paper trail seems a little fishy. When asked a direct question, Jerry answers with a weird back door answer, or something like; "I don't need that because they said it was this when clearly it isn't because they can't prove it isn't not!"

My spin on your last paragraph. Why does Jerry go to such great lengths to buck the easy way (the way the others before him have done) and seem so dedicated to challenging the system instead of "just doing it"? Don't you have to wonder why?

steve

Come on, Jerry. You know that's not really the way it is. There are very few, here, that are that way.

Bob

Still, I wouldn't sweat it. Things said in the heat of battle and all that. Something to laugh about later over a beer.

Bob

Jerry trolled:

Well now Jerry, if you're all squared away with DOT, wouldn't you be happy to have them DOT to confirm it?

nacl1 wrote:

Ray, that's not funny. We've already talked about the problems that can create, no matter how "clean" someone may think they are. That's like me calling the EPA and asking if it's ok for you to dump used motor oil in your backyard. You may or may not be doing that, but when they come around asking questions and digging up your yard to check, it sure would be a disruption to you. But your ok with it, right. Your clean. You'd be happy to have EPA come by and confirm it.

Bob

I'm glad he didn't list his turn-ons. :)

I don't know, but lacking any real 'knowledge' of why, or any consistent statement from folks as to why, I assume many possible reasons for it. Again, just making up hypotheticals off the top of my head, but 'originally' Jerry may have thought that the easy way to do it was to use the EX numbers that ACS had (because of some other project they may have been doing), using them as a 'subcontractor', because it would save money. Having been in business myself, I know that there are often 'creative' ways one may find to get around some regulations, which may 'bend' the laws, but doesn't 'break' them. Anybody who has ever done their own taxes knows what I mean, as you try and determine which 'slot' to put what 'deduction' into, in order to minimize the amount you have to pay.

It may have been that once having done that, Jerry was forced into that 'position', or simply chose to be there out of pure stubborness or spite. However, frankly, if what he is putting forth is true, I honestly have to ask WHY the national organizations would not be doing their best to ease the way for manufacturers in this business, while still ensuring the primary concern (safety).

I don't recall where I read it (decades ago), but there's an old saw about there being two kinds of quartermasters in the army -- the one who looks the regulation book to tell you why you CAN'T have what you need, and the one who looks through the rule book to find out why you CAN have what you need.

Going by appearances (and frankly there has been very little, if any, refutation of this point), the organizations have acted like the former in regards to USR, and like the latter in regards to Aerotech. Now, that poses two problems for me. First is the problem with consistency--I have a real problem with organizations that are inconsistent in this fashion, as it absolutely smacks of corruption in the process. The second is that (as previously stated) it is my view that the organizations should be trying to make it EASIER, not HARDER, to get manufacturers appropriately set up in the hobby.

One of the factors that we also have to face is that when TRA first started, and the higher-power engines were first being produced, there was little data to fall back on in regards to certifying motors, and it may have been more prudent at the time to err on the conservative side. But the hobby (and knowledge base) has progressed, and setting up obstacles purely for bureaucracy's sake (or worse, to keep out competition) is extremely short-sighted.

David Erbas-White

You must have loved Mel Brooks' "High Anxiety"...

David Erbas-White

Jerry's complaints have no affect on your ability to enjoy rocketry. There are currently FOUR manufacturers of solid-fuel hobby motors, and several more manufacturers of hybrid hobby motors. And that's not counting Estes and Quest, which make the small black powder motors.

That is one of the most profoundly true statements ever posted on r.m.r.

buck the easy

he must be a visionary!

- iz

Fred said if Jerry repeated something to his face at LDRS he would buy him a beer, so how bad can it possibly be, eh?

hey, he (Fred) even said I'd be welcome at a MDRA launch :)

- iz

baDBob wrote: