Ellis J228-6 TRA Decertified

I agree. Why weren't all TRA members privy to that letter posted above from TMT before now. Nothing in the Tripoli Report or Tripoli website about it. That was the first time I saw anything about it. How much time is enough time for the manufacturer to resubmit a motor for testing if the other(s) failed? I really don't know .....

Although I never bought mine at a launch, I'm certainly free to do that. I can buy a non-certified commercial manufacturered motor at the launch that failed on the test stand eight months earlier. Is this a problem or potential problem? I guess not, no one said it can't be sold at the launch, only you can't fly it if you do buy it.

Maybe, but we can only speculate since he doesn't respond to TMT or the consumers that bought his motors. Since he has a six month window of opportunity for testing it gives him enought time to sell all his stock and make his money without recourse if the motor fails testing. Yep, that's the system but I don't have to like it ..... My point: Don't buy it if it hasn't passed cert even if it's in testing. I know I won't. It would be good business practice for the manufacturer to communicate what his intentions are.

I found one of every three first fire JR would fit in them.

You forgot Jack Kane, who has been testing motors twice as long as TMT has existed.

Glen Overby

Incorrect. Ther is another whole group of people in MA that also test motors.

I'm not sure I understand this. Does this actually mean that TMT "certs" motors on receipt, prior to testing, pending the results? someone please correct me and tell me I'm misunderstanding this.

If so, this is nothing short of BOGUS. Make that fraudulent. It's a system designed to encourage the Jerry's of the world. What's gonna happen when motor causes an accident because TRA "certified" it before actually testing it? You can't "certify" a motor, and then 6 months later pull an Emily Latella and say "never mind".

Any one stuck with one of these bogus motors should demand a refund from whoever sold it and/or made it, and not worry about how to return it to its source.

It's not just Jack. There's a whole group of CMASS volunteers involved in NAR S&T motor testing. They've been doing the job since the early 80s IIRC

Sorry I may not have been clear on this. The K600 motor never did get certified and never was. I think someone else mentioned it may take 3

- 6 months to pass through testing after it is submitted. It's being sold to vendors and consumers in the meantime so there is basically a 3

- 6 month window of opportunity to unload your stock. If something is wrong with the motors or for whatever reason it doesn't get a cert, everyone is stuck. Except Mr. Ellis, he got paid. I'm not trying to grind this point into the ground so don't misunderstand me. But I do see a problem here. I know how to avoid it in the future but buyers beware. I bought many other EM motors pre-cert and they all got the certs but this type of situation can happen. I also wish I had thrust curves for at least half of them .....

Steve Naquin TRA 677 L2

I think you're misunderstanding it, Bob. TMT never said the motor was certified, they said it would "soon" be certified. Apparently the manufacturer and/or dealers jumped the gun and started selling them before they had actually been certified -- and TRA has no authority to prevent that. Neither does NAR.

Yes, there is a problem. Either the dealer didn't tell the customer the motor was uncertified, or the customer falsely assumed that there was no risk to buying an uncertified motor. Any dealer selling uncertified motors should at least let the customer know the motor isn't certified. And any customer who knowingly buys an uncertified motor must be willing to accept the risk that the motor may never be certified and may not be reliable.

I've got to say that I'm getting a distinctly negative impression of Ellis motors. First there was the problem with the Aerotech replacement motors being spongy. Then, they came out with some 'E' motors that sounded pretty good -- but I went to a launch were they were flying some, and the first two I saw CATO'd. Now, there is the (dual) problem of this motor certification, and the manufacturer's lack of response/communication regarding it. It doesn't leave me wanting to even TRY their motors at this point.

David Erbas-White

Wow! My mistake. My apologies to the CMASS motor testers. I wasn't aware of more than Jack (lead) and the various people who've been S&T secretary over the years.

Hey - writing about the S&T motor testing group would make for a really neat Sport Rocketry article.

Glen

David. kinda sorta feeling the same myself. Too bad cause I love to cluster 24/29mm su motors and EM had some diversity in that arena.

Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75

I'd add that I physically was holding my money in my hand to purchase the 'E' motors (I was going to pick up about 9 of htem) when I heard the call for the first launch of one -- turned around, watched it CATO, put my money back in my wallet and decided to see how more flights went. Within a few minutes the second one occurred, and I haven't looked at ANY of the Ellis motors since. I just have no desire to be a guinea pig like that.

David Erbas-White

I should have said Tests motors for TMT USA. NAR has a different group of people, but IIRC, they don't test Hybrids at this time. NAR USA, and TMT Canada both have other testers, but the primary person doing testing for HPR in the US is Paul as i understand it.

I should have said Tests motors for TMT USA. NAR has a different group of people, but IIRC, they don't test Hybrids at this time. NAR USA, and TMT Canada both have other testers, but the primary person doing testing for HPR in the US is Paul as i understand it.

Are the motors tested officially recognized as a Certified motor by TMT, Tripoli, and NAR. Tom

I see more to the problem than just that. The letter from Tripoli testing that Phil sent along states "This motor has never been certified, although it has been offered for sale with many vendors. They received no indication the certification was still pending, or due to his non-communication to solve a problem, not actively applied for".

"Many vendors" have or had it and are stuck with inventory. Why isn't everyone involved better informed about the certification process? Is there a proceedure in place for this at the vendor level? No indication the certification was still pending, not actively applied for - I wonder at what point in time did the vendor come to realize his inventory on that item just became worthless.

__________________ Steve Naquin TRA 677 L2