Ellis J228-6 TRA Decertified

To hot to bother wrote:


I'm sure they would. Just one little problem -- UL doesn't have any history of testing motors like these. Additionally, I've got to believe that UL (which is in it to make money) would be charging far more than NAR/TMT (which is volunteer run and registered as a non-profit).
I've just had to go through some testing on a product for international use with an (unnamed) testing authority. Lest you think that the BATFE bureaucracy is bad, we've been trying to get this product 'certified' for over two years. The latest go around was on the order of:
Them: "Your (blank) is at 99.9% of the allowed level" Us: "Well, no, it's at 79.9% of the allowed level, and we've factored in the allowed 20% tolerances" (and bear in mind the design had to be changed 3 times to get our (blank) to that low a level). Them: "Well, that's pretty close to the limit, you know." Us: "Yes, but we all agreed that the line had to be drawn somewhere, and that's where the legal authorities draw that line." Them: "Well, our inspector thinks that's too close for us to approve it." Us: (after consultation with the customer, who simply needs to get this finished) "OK, then what amount is acceptable to you?" Them: "Well, he thinks he can approve it at 95% after factoring in tolerances." Us: (realizing that we have to change the design yet one more time) "OK, but can we get that in writing???" Them: "Sure." (of course, we had agreed more than a year ago on the previous limit, etc., etc.,
And bear in mind that we have to foot the bill for this back-and-forth, the re-design, etc. It's unfortunately the nature of bureaucracies... (and before anyone jumps in to say we should have fought it, this was the customer's choice -- he simply needs to get the product out, it doesn't make any money sitting on the certification bench).
David Erbas-White
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We have a division with a product at that place as well, pending cert, If it's the name similar to an insurance company.
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To hot to bother wrote:

UL doesn't test for product performance, They test for product safety/failure modes. It's not likely that UL or anybody else could test motors as quickly and economically as TRA or NAR do.
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To hot to bother wrote:

Sure, but who'd pay for it? UL testing requires megabucks.
8
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I'm sure they would. If the manufacturer were willing to pay several hundred thousand to UL for the testing, as opposed to the $25-35 that they currently pay for NAR or TRA testing.
For a $100 motor that they sell maybe 100 per year, that would add at least $1000 per motor to the price. WOuld you buy them? for 11x the current price?
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.mars (Bob Kaplow) wrote:

An Ellis motor?????
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
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Jeff Taylor wrote:

I agree. Why weren't all TRA members privy to that letter posted above from TMT before now. Nothing in the Tripoli Report or Tripoli website about it. That was the first time I saw anything about it. How much time is enough time for the manufacturer to resubmit a motor for testing if the other(s) failed? I really don't know .....

Although I never bought mine at a launch, I'm certainly free to do that. I can buy a non-certified commercial manufacturered motor at the launch that failed on the test stand eight months earlier. Is this a problem or potential problem? I guess not, no one said it can't be sold at the launch, only you can't fly it if you do buy it.

Maybe, but we can only speculate since he doesn't respond to TMT or the consumers that bought his motors. Since he has a six month window of opportunity for testing it gives him enought time to sell all his stock and make his money without recourse if the motor fails testing. Yep, that's the system but I don't have to like it ..... My point: Don't buy it if it hasn't passed cert even if it's in testing. I know I won't. It would be good business practice for the manufacturer to communicate what his intentions are.

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I'm not sure I understand this. Does this actually mean that TMT "certs" motors on receipt, prior to testing, pending the results? someone please correct me and tell me I'm misunderstanding this.
If so, this is nothing short of BOGUS. Make that fraudulent. It's a system designed to encourage the Jerry's of the world. What's gonna happen when motor causes an accident because TRA "certified" it before actually testing it? You can't "certify" a motor, and then 6 months later pull an Emily Latella and say "never mind".
Any one stuck with one of these bogus motors should demand a refund from whoever sold it and/or made it, and not worry about how to return it to its source.
--
Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L >>> To reply, there's no internet on Mars (yet)! <<<
Kaplow Klips & Baffle: http://nira-rocketry.org/Document/MayJun00.pdf
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

Sorry I may not have been clear on this. The K600 motor never did get certified and never was. I think someone else mentioned it may take 3 - 6 months to pass through testing after it is submitted. It's being sold to vendors and consumers in the meantime so there is basically a 3 - 6 month window of opportunity to unload your stock. If something is wrong with the motors or for whatever reason it doesn't get a cert, everyone is stuck. Except Mr. Ellis, he got paid. I'm not trying to grind this point into the ground so don't misunderstand me. But I do see a problem here. I know how to avoid it in the future but buyers beware. I bought many other EM motors pre-cert and they all got the certs but this type of situation can happen. I also wish I had thrust curves for at least half of them .....
Steve Naquin TRA 677 L2

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Steve Naquin wrote:

Yes, there is a problem. Either the dealer didn't tell the customer the motor was uncertified, or the customer falsely assumed that there was no risk to buying an uncertified motor. Any dealer selling uncertified motors should at least let the customer know the motor isn't certified. And any customer who knowingly buys an uncertified motor must be willing to accept the risk that the motor may never be certified and may not be reliable.
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snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote:
I've got to say that I'm getting a distinctly negative impression of Ellis motors. First there was the problem with the Aerotech replacement motors being spongy. Then, they came out with some 'E' motors that sounded pretty good -- but I went to a launch were they were flying some, and the first two I saw CATO'd. Now, there is the (dual) problem of this motor certification, and the manufacturer's lack of response/communication regarding it. It doesn't leave me wanting to even TRY their motors at this point.
David Erbas-White
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David Erbas-White wrote:

David. kinda sorta feeling the same myself. Too bad cause I love to cluster 24/29mm su motors and EM had some diversity in that arena.
Ted Novak TRA#5512 IEAS#75
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the notorious t-e-d wrote:

I'd add that I physically was holding my money in my hand to purchase the 'E' motors (I was going to pick up about 9 of htem) when I heard the call for the first launch of one -- turned around, watched it CATO, put my money back in my wallet and decided to see how more flights went. Within a few minutes the second one occurred, and I haven't looked at ANY of the Ellis motors since. I just have no desire to be a guinea pig like that.
David Erbas-White
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I have seen several fly. They usually would cato several hundred feet up. Bob purchased what I had on hand back.
wrote:

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Hi Chad,
Curious, where those the white labels with no manufacture date or the newer black labels with the born on dates ?
I've flown many and still have lots of the white labeled ones. those did not cato, yet anyway for me.
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Black label.

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Black label with date. I was the ginue pig. Some blew on the pad, others blew at or near propellant burnout.
I tried the rest, now I'm sticking with the best - Aerotech.
No replies to my e-mails. Local vendor replaced the first batch of blown motors with more from the same date...
--
-Fred Shecter
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Thanks for the info Fred and Chad.
The lack of communication between the manufacture, customer and TMT is what is bothering me most about this.
I guess I'll be glad my old non-dated white labels aren't blowing up and just finish them off when I can.
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Isn't Tripoli concerned about misdating?
They do not seem concerned about faulty motors or uncertified motors being widely distributed.
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

That's why the new ones have dates. DUH.

jerry, HOW STUPID ARE YOU?
This whole thread is about the decertification of faulty motors.
Why do you sell uncertified motors?
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