Ellis J228-6 TRA Decertified

It's not always that bad. The last batch of motors that Loki Research sent to TMT were tested within two weeks. There seem to be two main things that slow the process down: One, Paul's business forces him to travel a fair amount. Two, it's too frigg'n hot in Arizona to test motors for several months of the year. Short of finding another person in a different location to do the testing, there's not much that can be done.

-Jeff Taylor

Sure, I have a gripe: The last time I sent motors in Paul said there would be a delay of one week, 'cause he was too busy testing somebody's hybrids. ;-)

-Jeff

Please.

It was on the TRA list. All you have to do is sign up. It just happened a few days ago. To recent to be in TR or the website for that matter.

No. They do not cert the motors before testing. The J228 wa never certified even though it was being sold by dealers. That is not the only time I've heard of a motor being sold before it was certified.

Sounds like Ellis pulled a quick one on everyone. I don't think dealers or consumers are accustomed to having to verify that they are buyiing a certified motors - they just assume that they are. If there is anyone to find fault with, I think it is Ellis.

Black label with date. I was the ginue pig. Some blew on the pad, others blew at or near propellant burnout.

I tried the rest, now I'm sticking with the best - Aerotech.

No replies to my e-mails. Local vendor replaced the first batch of blown motors with more from the same date...

Thanks Phil. It's been over 4 weeks since I sent my request and the website said it could take 3 or 4 weeks so maybe they are a little behind. It's important that I get on that list. __________________ Steve Naquin TRA 677 L2

Phil the J228 was certified and then decertified. It was the K600 that never received a cert. I know both were sold before ever being certified at some HPR launches by vendors, as were the I400 and H101's. __________________ Steve Naquin TRA 677 L2

I've been flying for a while now, I don't recall this ever happening with any other manufacturers motors where the motors were completely into distribution and in the hands of consumers this many months after a failed cert test on the stand. Looks to me like the vendors selling some of these motors found out when we did that it wasn't going to get a cert. Can you buy an AeroTech motor before it has been certified or is this just an Ellis thing? __________________ Steve Naquin TRA 677 L2

I don't know. Wouldn't NAR, TRA and/or most states recognize a trusted testing authority such as UL?

I'm sure they would. Just one little problem -- UL doesn't have any history of testing motors like these. Additionally, I've got to believe that UL (which is in it to make money) would be charging far more than NAR/TMT (which is volunteer run and registered as a non-profit).

I've just had to go through some testing on a product for international use with an (unnamed) testing authority. Lest you think that the BATFE bureaucracy is bad, we've been trying to get this product 'certified' for over two years. The latest go around was on the order of:

Them: "Your (blank) is at 99.9% of the allowed level" Us: "Well, no, it's at 79.9% of the allowed level, and we've factored in the allowed 20% tolerances" (and bear in mind the design had to be changed 3 times to get our (blank) to that low a level). Them: "Well, that's pretty close to the limit, you know." Us: "Yes, but we all agreed that the line had to be drawn somewhere, and that's where the legal authorities draw that line." Them: "Well, our inspector thinks that's too close for us to approve it." Us: (after consultation with the customer, who simply needs to get this finished) "OK, then what amount is acceptable to you?" Them: "Well, he thinks he can approve it at 95% after factoring in tolerances." Us: (realizing that we have to change the design yet one more time) "OK, but can we get that in writing???" Them: "Sure." (of course, we had agreed more than a year ago on the previous limit, etc., etc.,

And bear in mind that we have to foot the bill for this back-and-forth, the re-design, etc. It's unfortunately the nature of bureaucracies... (and before anyone jumps in to say we should have fought it, this was the customer's choice -- he simply needs to get the product out, it doesn't make any money sitting on the certification bench).

David Erbas-White

UL doesn't test for product performance, They test for product safety/failure modes. It's not likely that UL or anybody else could test motors as quickly and economically as TRA or NAR do.

You could if AT was selling them. There's nothing to prevent any manufacturer from selling uncertified motors. Dealers should make sure the motors they buy are already certified prior to buying them, but apparently some don't. Of course there are so many motors available these days, from so many different manufacturers, it would be easy to have one fall through the cracks. The dealer knows the manufacturer has a bunch of motors that are certified, and just assumes that all the motors he gets from that manufacturer are certified.

Sure, but who'd pay for it? UL testing requires megabucks.

Oops - I got them backwards.

IMO Ellis should give a refund to anyone that asks but, since he's not responding to people, I guess that's not likely.

I've never heard of it happening with Aerotech. There is nothing that prevents this from happening. Now it's just one more thing we have to watch closely. It could have happened to me or almost anyone else just as easily.

I remember recently, a hybrid manfacturer was selling their casings before tthe motor was tested. Then when they were tested and approved, they started shipping the fuel grains. THis is a non story since everything went off as planned.