[F-FT] I joined TRA

Kevin OClassen wrote:


Worry not, it's not the organizations that do it, but rather some of the members. There are members on both sides of the fence who throw aspersions at the other side.
While they may not see eye-to-eye on everything, the two organizations get along quite well. I also know that Ken Good and Mark Bundick periodically discuss issues of interest to both organizations.
-Kevin
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On Sun, 03 Jul 2005 09:08:01 GMT, "Kevin OClassen"

Who said any organization condones it? If you have a problem with being labeled for having a certain pattern of behavior, it's you problem not everyone elses.
Also, I don't necessarily agree with the weenie characteristics you list. Especially safety.
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<<tons of stuff snipped>>

I'm glad safety isn't on the list. What does constitute weenie characteristics? And what is it about those characteristics that potentially relates them to NAR? Are there equally TRA weenies?
Folks are right that I shouldn't blame the organization for the behavior of individuals. Yet the behavior of individuals reflects on the organization. A conundrum.
The bare knuckles of name-calling rarely helps a thing. I simply stated (or should have stated more clearly) that I am far less likely to join an organization where this sort of behavior is encountered. You're right, Phil, this is solely my problem. Keeps me out of a lot of organizations, including a number whose aims I support but whose methodology I abhor. Ah, well.
KO
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Kevin OClassen wrote:

With Bob and Jerry being members of NAR, it's nice to see you don't apply the double standard thought process..(;-)

See above..(:-)

Fred
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Kevin OClassen wrote:

Where did you get the notion, backbiting is promoted by the organization??

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Kevin OClassen wrote:

Oh, does the NAR censor its members' speech?

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Only TRA tries to do that.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it with religious conviction. -- Blaise Pascal
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writes:

So far :-)
--

snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com




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snip,
Kevin,
Verna & I have been going to TRA & NAR launches for 9 years now and we know many members of each group. While I don't doubt there may be a few in either organization that have an axe to grind with the other, for one reason or another, in all the time I have known people in both groups, I have never one time seen animosity displayed at a launch or club meeting.
About 90% of NAR 665 - TRA / 81, belong to one or the other and I can tell you in no uncertain terms, we all work very well together and to which organization anyone belongs to, is never an issue. It's my experience that the club as a whole is much stronger and appealing to a much broader base, than if it were just one or the other.
The largest thing we've ever built and flown is Verna's 3 stage Saturn V but it is obviously not HPR. 90% of what we fly are 3 engines or less. Whenever we have attended TRA launches, we were welcomed, small rockets and all and I've never once heard anyone say they didn't want TRA members at a NAR launch. Wanting to exclude either group just doesn't make sense to me.
FWIW, the only place I have ever heard of complaints is on rmr.
Randy http://vernarockets.com /
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Hi Kevin,
Let me step in here and give you some facts:
1) Mark "Bunny" Bundick never fired a high powered motor until the LATE 1990s. Before that he was ADIMENTLY AGAINTS High Powered Rocketry.
2) NAR people tended and still do from upon the "bigger is better" slant that TRA and other Amateur organizations embrace.
3) NAR was FORCED to team with TRA for financial reasons. You see, High Powered rocketry is SUCH a HUGE financial gain, that NAR finally accepted it in the mid to late 1990s. It was money. Money through certification of motors. Money through High Power certifications. It was MONEY that brought NAR into the MODERN age.
4) During the 1980s, NAR stood by and said nothing PUBLICALLY about the Estes Video where Estes took a pallet of reloads, salted them with black powered, lit the stack, then forwarded the tape to the BATF ... guess we all have VERY short memories on that one eh?
5) NAR launches would ban the use of motors over G during the 1980s and would cite insurance and non-certification reasons.
6) G. Harry Stine, Vern Estes, both were against model rocket motors that fall into the high power scale. Why? They cited safety ... but I wonder why Irv Walt and Leroy Piester (Centuri founder) were making high power composite motors as early as the late 1960s and selling them to hobbyists ... could it be that Stine and Estes say these new composite motors as a threat to their commercial black powered offerings? Well in the late 1980s, Estes obviously did when they submitted their salted video to the BATF and NTSB.
There is more ... allot more, but your mind is made up and so is mine. I will never support NAR in anyway. They did their best to destroy high power rocketry from the beginning and only now when NAR is threatened, they offer an olive branch to TRA ... too little, too late NAR.
Just needed to bring some of you who were not active during those "dark days" up to speed about your beloved NAR ...
Back to lurking mode ...
Kevin OClassen wrote:

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Let me clear the typos ... I hate laptop keyboards.
snipped-for-privacy@juno.com wrote:

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snipped-for-privacy@juno.com wrote:

Leave well enough alone... I'm "againts" making the same mistake twice... <G>
David Erbas-White
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I should add to this that when NAR finally did adopt HPR, TRAs response was to threaten to run a slate of TRA candidates for the NAR BOT and "hostile take over" the organization and put it out of business.
BTW, at what NAR (or fo rhtat matter TRA) charges for HPR certificatiopns, they do NOT make money on the operation. And neither organization charges for HPR certification of members.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
"To enslave men, successfully and safely, it is necessary to have their minds occupied with thoughts and aspirations short of the liberty of which they are deprived. A certain degree of attainable good must be kept before them." Frederick Douglas, "My Bondage and My Freedom," 1855
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kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote:

Imagine how wacky rocketry would be today with ONLY TRA and NOT NAR. There would be no honest organization to join.
Or Kosdon NAR certified motors.

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
  Click to see the full signature.
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But they DO make money on donations and membership subscriptions. As high power was gaining more and more participents, NAR had to start adopting a pseudo High Power Endorsement/Tolerance; or face financial ruin.
TRA should have taken over NAR and then annexed it into TRA. NAR also DESERVES to be out of buisness. NAR today is NOTHING like NAR of 1959 - 1976. I chose, 1976 because that was the year when Werner von Braun died. Once he was gone, NAR, and NASA went to hell in a hand basket.
Oh well, you stick to NAR Bob, and let the rest of us fly big and high. I am sure an A8-3 or a D-12 is fun for you. Like you, when I was a child, I was EASILY impressed with "A" and "C" motors. I have grown up, make six figures a year (after taxes) and I just want something more ... something with more sophistication ... I mean paper towel rolls and balsa had its day ... 1968, but in 2005 give me flight computers, kevlar, and "N" and "P" motors ... I hope you can understand?
Bob Kaplow wrote:

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On 5 Jul 2005 12:52:33 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@juno.com"

I think the MR only NAR would have remained financially viable, but it was at risk to become marginalized.

No. However, in actuality many, if not most, TRA members came from the ranks of the NAR.

Why do you say that? It seems to me that TRA is less deserving due to bad management and administration.

True, but Wehrner had nothing to do with it.

We understand that you have money to burn, and there is nothing wrong with big sophisticated sport rockets, nor with small MR rockets.
Alan
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The simple fact THIS is the debate, tells me something is wrong at BOTH.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Bull$h!t!
NAR has evolved a LOT in the past 3 decades. What once was a competition centric organization now does competition, sport launches, HPR, outreach, legal, and much more.
Further, for many years TRA offered NO rocket insurance to any one other than its BOD, while NAR offered the insurance necessary to secure flying fields. Only recently did TRA insurance finally cover its MEMBERS.
BTW, vom Braun died in 1977

Sure is. So are HPR motors.

I've been flying HPR since 1989, using computers for my rockets since 1971, and first uded Kevlar and carbon fibre on my models in the late 70s. I still do all of the above. You don't have to give up model rockets to fly HPR.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
"For as adamant as my country has been about civil liberties during peacetime, it has a long history ... of failing to preserve civil liberties when it perceived its national security threatened." -- former Supreme Court Justice William Brennan
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On Sun, 10 Jul 2005 16:59:18 GMT, "shockwaveriderz"

And people wonder why you are called a weenie.
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Doesn't ANYBODY address any issues anymore?
Even if he is a weenie, what about the substance of his comments?
When I ASKED IF TRA had identified any mistakes at all it had made, Ray posted a long personal attack against me. Again without addressing the issue. No other replies were forthcoming either.
Do people really care so little?
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
  Click to see the full signature.
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