[F-FT] I joined TRA

Leave well enough alone... I'm "againts" making the same mistake twice...

David Erbas-White

Hi Kevin,

Let me step in here and give you some facts:

1) Mark "Bunny" Bundick never fired a high powered motor until the LATE

1990s. Before that he was ADAMANTLY AGAINST High Powered Rocketry.

2) NAR people tended and still do frown upon the "bigger is better" slant that TRA and other Amateur organizations embrace.

3) NAR was FORCED to team with TRA for financial reasons. You see, High Powered rocketry is SUCH a HUGE financial gain, that NAR finally accepted it in the mid to late 1990s. It was money; money through certification of motors; money through High Power certifications. It was MONEY that brought NAR into the MODERN age.

4) During the 1980s, NAR stood by and said nothing PUBLICALLY about the

Estes Video where Estes took a pallet of Aerotech reloads, salted them with black power, lit the stack, then forwarded the tape to the BATF/NTSB ... guess we all have VERY short memories on that one eh?

5) NAR launches would ban the use of motors over G during the 1980s and

would cite insurance and non-certification reasons, but did nothing to rectify the situation.

6) G. Harry Stine, Vern Estes, both were against model rocket motors that fell into the high power scale. Why? They cited safety ... but I

wonder why Irv Walt and Leroy Piester (Centuri founder) were making high power composite motors as early as the late 1960s and selling them to hobbyists ... could it be that Stine and Estes saw these new composite motors as a threat to their commercial black powered offerings? Well in the late 1980s, Estes obviously did when they submitted their salted

video to the BATF and NTSB.

There is more ... a lot more, but your mind is made up and so is mine. I will never support NAR in anyway. They did their best to destroy high power rocketry from the beginning and only now when NAR is threatened, they offer an olive branch to TRA ... too little, too late NAR.

Just needed to bring some of you who were not active during those "dark

days" up to speed about your beloved NAR ...

Back to lurking mode ...

and as for back bitt> >

Thanks. I appreciate the history, some of which I had heard previously. Much is new to me, as I have not kept up with the hobby for many years (Sorry, I was under a rock...literally) Number 4 on your list is especially disturbing. Gives me some perspective on why such a rift might exist. At the same time, I wonder how to start filling in the rift. Name-calling isn't it... this much I know.

FWIW, my issue remains one of courtesy. Your reply is "angry", but contains information and is generally courteous. You can disagree with someone, vehemently, and still be courteous, not making the situation worse with rants and ad homineum. Compare your reply with one or two others and you may see what I mean. From your post I come away with information, not anger; concern, not one-upsmanship.

I guess I just hope for the best from people, rather than the worst. Though I have to wonder just what I'm thinking-- this *is* Usenet. All too many people use the anonymity of Usenet to say things they would never say to a person's face. That's why there are kill filters.

As an aside, I giggle at the "bigger is better" thing from a Freudian perspective, with a shot of Dawkins thrown in. Be it guns, dogs, cars, houses, wallets, or rockets, it's all the same to me. Has nothing to do with my membership in any organization (except maybe the APA). Doesn't stop me from wanting to shoot bigger rockets, either. If NAR didn't support HPR at all, then likely I'd be a TRA member. May still end up joining to experiment with hybrids. May not. My spouse is beginning to count....

For me "complexity is better".

Once again, thanks. Maybe we'll meet someday. Ummm... who are you??

Kevin OClassen

"Courtesy is given, respect is earned."

Yes, it has indeed. With the BoD elections at hand, it has made for some interesting reading.

Doc

Show off...

Eldred

If you're going to do that, why not just donate the $70 fee to the legal fund?

Eldred

I should add to this that when NAR finally did adopt HPR, TRAs response was to threaten to run a slate of TRA candidates for the NAR BOT and "hostile take over" the organization and put it out of business.

BTW, at what NAR (or fo rhtat matter TRA) charges for HPR certificatiopns, they do NOT make money on the operation. And neither organization charges for HPR certification of members.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Imagine how wacky rocketry would be today with ONLY TRA and NOT NAR. There would be no honest organization to join.

Or Kosdon NAR certified motors.

But they DO make money on donations and membership subscriptions. As high power was gaining more and more participents, NAR had to start adopting a pseudo High Power Endorsement/Tolerance; or face financial ruin.

TRA should have taken over NAR and then annexed it into TRA. NAR also DESERVES to be out of buisness. NAR today is NOTHING like NAR of 1959

- 1976. I chose, 1976 because that was the year when Werner von Braun died. Once he was gone, NAR, and NASA went to hell in a hand basket.

Oh well, you stick to NAR Bob, and let the rest of us fly big and high. I am sure an A8-3 or a D-12 is fun for you. Like you, when I was a child, I was EASILY impressed with "A" and "C" motors. I have grown up, make six figures a year (after taxes) and I just want someth> > > 3) NAR was FORCED to team with TRA for financial reasons. You see,

Yep, you're both good to go.

I just wish I had known you two were having difficulties sooner, so it could be resolved more quickly.

-Kevin

David,

I've decided to "take the plunge", as well. I paid via PayPal, and emailed to ask about carrying my NAR certification over. I got a prompt reply from HQ via email, and will be mailing a copy of my NAR card in the morning.

I tried signing up for the TRA listserv via the instructions on the TRA website. It'll be an interesting experiment to see whether it works for me or not, given the troubles reported by others.

Like you, I decided to forego the opportunity to pay for missing magazines. I'll keep my ER and Sprocketry magazines, and leave it at that.

- Rick "NAR and TRA and PRS -- Oh my!" Dickinson

As a quick follow up, I sent my application in by mail on Thursday, June

1. This morning (Tuesday, July 5th) I received a phone call asking for a street address for delivery of my handbook, etc. (I give a PO Box for most 'mail' things). Talk about fast service!!!

David Erbas-White

Welcome!! I got thte details of how the listserv enrollment works. They need to get info from HQ which, isn't even close to real time so it can take a while.

It's a technology issue Doc, you have to send wilkins or kevin a request. the email you are getting is the list server auto bot.

their list server's software is not the brightest crayon in the box at this time.

The two rejections I saw were because the name of the list wasn't specified -- the server runs multiple lists, so it doesn't know what you want when you tell it "subscribe", so it provides a generic response.

There may have been other issues; those are the only ones I personally saw, and once that was addressed, both joined without a problem.

-Kevin

You need to provide your member number when you subscribe to the list; if you haven't received that yet, you won't be able to get in.

Once you have your member number, if you run into problems, let me know and I'll help get them resolved ASAP.

-Kevin

I think the MR only NAR would have remained financially viable, but it was at risk to become marginalized.

No. However, in actuality many, if not most, TRA members came from the ranks of the NAR.

Why do you say that? It seems to me that TRA is less deserving due to bad management and administration.

True, but Wehrner had nothing to do with it.

We understand that you have money to burn, and there is nothing wrong with big sophisticated sport rockets, nor with small MR rockets.

Alan

An email from which TRA member?

The simple fact THIS is the debate, tells me something is wrong at BOTH.