[FFT] Master Blasters redux

isn't launching HPR at targets against the NFPA regs?
from NFPA 1127:
4.17 Launch Operations.
4.17.1 No person shall ignite and launch a high power rocket
horizontally, at a target, or so that the rocket's flight path goes into clouds or beyond the boundaries of the launch site.
Chapter 6 Prohibited Activities
6.1 Prohibited Acts. The following activities shall be prohibited by this code:
(2) Use of a high power rocket or high power rocket motor as a weapon or against a target
Houston, we have a problem....... notice it doesn't specifiy "ground" target versus say, "aerial" target, it just says TARGET. When you paint a big BULLSEYE on the ground and then launch a rocket at it, thats a target.
And you can't argue that they were launching in a state that hasn't adopted NFPA 1127:
For you that don't know, NFPA 1127 IS the SAFETY CODE of the TRA. So it appears Pat G. who is the VP of the TRA may have violated his own organizations Safety Code.... and what about the Strouds? I assume they are also TRA members.
also doesn't Sci-Fi have on the Master Blasters website a video showing a "horizontal" HPR launch "at a target" in this case, some football goalposts? hmmm the plot thickens...
yeah, I know "we don't need no stinkin laws"..... and if we do have "stinkin laws" I'm not going to abide by them anyway, and you can't make me. I think that attitude is the crux of the problem.... Perhaps this is one reason why the BATFe sees a need for regulation and control of HPR?
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Playing devil's advocate here but are they doing it independently or as a TRA group? Is there a State or Federal law that prohibits them from doing it?
Under present circumstances I'd agree that lawn darts might not be the best thing for the hobby but what is the real jurisdiction here for what they can or can not do?
What I'm asking is, who has the real authority to say you've violated a law and these are the consequences?
Randy http://vernarockets.com /
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Shockie the Weenie King -
1. FFT cannot apply when you start off slamming the participants and TRA - who is not even involved with the show.
2. Do you know where the launch was? Does NFPA apply there?
3. It was on private land. Does NFPA apply there?
4. If you are so worried about it, rat em out.
5. I understand there are also NAR members involved too. Can you spot them?
Why do you persist in trying to cause friction between the two orgs? Do you know there are a lot of people are members of both?
I see you were a cute kid. What happened? http://www.weinermobile.com/ Picture Mobile#9
On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 11:30:55 GMT, "shockwaveriderz"

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response inline..
shockie B) s
wrote:

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On Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:51:52 GMT, "Shockie the Weenie King"

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So where DOES NFPA apply in your misguided opinion?

Yes. The insurance is a comercial contract. The show is separately responsible for getting "permits" if any.

Then why does TRA fixate on trying to shut down launches with "uncertified" motors not affiliated with TRA or NAR?
Jerry
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Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

They don't.
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wrote:

Everywhere in my misguided opinion.
Since I have a guided opionion, I'll say that it is possible to get permission to not obey many regulations - if you go about it the right way. Also not all states have adopted all parts of NFPA. Shockie the Weenie King didn't even know where the launch was so how could he know if NFPA applied?

I haven't seen that. You seem to fixate on it though

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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Prove it. When has TRA tried to shut down an unaffiliated launch? Be specific.

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--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

Thank you for this significant addition to the discussion. Did you get the answer from my post? Either way - you win the prize. It's an anti TRA hissy fit done by none other than Shockie the Weenie King.
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shockwaveriderz wrote:
A couple of things...
I was one of the folks who objected to the wording that NAR had that you needed to sign that you would conduct all of your rocketry activities according to the NAR safety code. They have since changed that such that you agree that all of your 'sport' rocketry activities must be according to the safety code.
The other aspect is that in the laws I've read, there are specific exemptions for 'special effects' used in the entertainment industry. Just because you've quoted portions of the laws, doesn't mean that you're aware of OTHER areas of the law that may grant this type of exemption. That may, in fact, be one reason they did this in Texas (if I'm correct), because there may have been some leeway in the laws there.
David Erbas-White
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

So anyone who's a member of TRA is prohibited from doing any other type of activity involving rocket motors? Is that what you're saying?

Not true. A certified flyer can supervise the use of the motor by a non-certified person. But who says this is HPR?

For HPR. This isn't HPR.

Produced by a corporation, doofus.

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On 29 Jul 2005 11:52:43 -0700, " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com"

Ray,
Is that any way to address Shockie the Weenie King? You should call him your hindass.
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snipped-for-privacy@hotmail.com says...

The question is: How DO laws and rules apply to "special effects", stunts, etc. used in the production of an entertainment program (I.e. TV show)? I am sure it is illegal to discharge a firearm within the city limits of wherever Mythbusters is filmed, but I have yet to hear of the feds busting down their door. And what about that cannon filled with pounds of BP? Surely that wasn't legal.
I am willing to bet the producers of these shows have these things called permits.
--
Tweak

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Tweak wrote:

Bingo! The real question is, why do certain people always insist on trying to make issues out non-issues?
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Well I can tell you it was not a TRA or NAR launch!
How much trouble did KY get in for launching ballistic rockets in October Skies... Oh, it was done on a set.
How many tickets are issued for speeding and reckless driving in The Fast and Furiuos... Oh, it was done on a set.
I could go on, but these people participated in a TV show, on a set, with safety procedures in place set by a retired CSFM inspector. I think it was done safe. BATF LEUP holder Pat was on the set every Friday to handle the motors for the launch, even the weeks he was not on the team.
If you look at the posts of people who think this show is the death of the hobby, I find it to be mostly NAR members. Same who thought high power was the death of our hobby, and think EX is the death of our hobby....
We need to expose the hobby, most of the Sci Fi audience knows about model rockets, but very few know about HPR. I think this is a great way to get it out there!
Erik Gates

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erik: I don't have a problem with trying to "expose" the sci-fi audience to HPR....
but I do have a problem with the way HPR is being presented to that audience.
I would prefer to see a show with the Gates Bros. building and launching monster rockets , then having HPR performing stupid rocket tricks....
I don't have an issue with the safety..
I don't think HPR nor EX will be the death of the hobby....I think showing HPR in a bad light will do that all on its own..
as far as being on a set, don't you still have to follow all applicable local and state and federal laws? and I doubt you will be lobbing those HPR against a ground target on a set.....
Nobody has even attempted to answer any of my intial queries in my original post.
what about launching HPR rockets against ground targets? Isn't that exactly the conculsion that the BATFE came to in their stupid tests? Isn't that one of the major reasons they want to ban and control HPR more than it is now? Can you or will you answer this central question? Was any thought or discussion ever done as to how this may make our hobby look to others? Don;t you think the BATFE and Charlie Shummer will be watching with great interest how well the lawndarts stick to their targets? They will say, see I told you so...
I think its just a mistake to try and recruit new HPR members based on cato explosions, crashes, and stupid rocket tricks.....
thanks for the rational dialogue..
shockie B)

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He both claims it is not HPR and claims it is good exposure for HPR.

Wanna bet?

:)
Hey! I agree.

GFL
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Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

So this "legality" crap is just a strawman. Why didn't you just state your opposition to the show and leave it at that?

Firing rockets horizontally is also against HPR safety code, but that doesn't prevent it from being done for movies. The HPR safety code applies to specific actitivies and there are separate rules for these other types of activities. The stuff that being done on this show, or on a movie set, is not HPR and is not under the HPR code.

That's the first reasonably intelligent objection you've made.

The participants didn't create the show, and apparently had very little control over its content.
Also, I don't see this as a recruiting tool for HPR, since it's not HPR. The only connection between this show and what we do is that rocket motors are involved. Hey, testing labs use rocket motors to slam things into concrete walls -- is that HPR? Are they recruiting for HPR, or violating the HPR code? No.
I agree that I'd rather see a show about real HPR and I think it could be done in a way that is both informative and entertaining, but the network people don't care about my opinion. Heck, I think "Survivor" would have been a lot better if it had been about real people really trying to survive in the wild. Instead they made something that was basically a sick game show full of weirdos, based more on social experiment than survival.
h
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