[FFT] Master Blasters redux

I enjoyed the show. I thought it looked fun, and I thought it made the rocket guys look quite capable and impressive. You clearly believe that it
puts "HPR in a bad light" and you extend that to believe it will have a major and lasting negative impact on the hobby. It's fine for you to have that opinion. Your basic and obvious problem is that you think almost everyone (NAR members, the general public, etc) agree with your opinion. They do not. Most rational people know the difference between entertainment and reality. So quit trying to stir up trouble where none needs to exist!
-- David

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original
exactly
one
see
OK, So you think we can keep the hobby safe by trying to hide?
How about this logic. We show the general public the limit of what our motors are capable of. Then when the ATF comes up and says we can take out a tank from 5 miles away they will understand better it cant be done.
RDH8
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It would seem to me that just because motors made for and used by the HPR industry were used, and the rockets were constructed using techniques and materials common to HPR, the activities conducted are not HPR. HPR is a "consumer activity", a "form of nonprofessional rocketry based on model rocketry" to quote NFPA 1127, a sport available to the general public when conducted under a specific set of guidelines. Associations such as TRA, NAR supply member services and insurance to those that are members and who conduct those activities under those guidelines.
Launching rockets for a television shoot is a whole other matter. They had insurance, they had landowner's permission, applicable permits etc. What they did does not fall under the jurisdiction of NFPA 1127. Just because a rocket has a total impulse >= 160 NS and <@,960 Ns does not automatically make it an HPR rocket. NFPA1127 is a set of rules that governs HPR, not every rocket related activity in the country.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with NAR or TRA. Those are associations providing member services to MR and/or HPR fliers. This was a professional activity utilizing HPR materials for economy and convenience.
Mike D CTI

a
target.
a
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Very well stated Mike.
RDH8
Ns does not automatically

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No but it involved TRA members who have taken a pledge to follow the safety code. NFPA regs in this case.

I thought he was on the BOD of TRA who successfully received a JUDGEMENT in a lawsuit against the ATF which said in relevant part:
Here's the JUDGE's words verifying it.
"In addition, the Court finds that the ATF's pronouncement that sport rocket motors are not PADs is invalid because it was made without compliance with the notice-and-comment rulemaking procedures of the OCCA and the APA."
Here is the court order that is from:
http://www.v-serv.com/atf/62.pdf
Why would he need a LEUP for rocket motors?

I didn't think it was HPR. You said so yourself.

Well?
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

jerry, Did you know that you are a hypocrite?
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was
NAR 665 - TRA 81, does it all. So far, we are not being molested by ATF or anyone else. The enthusiasm of the club is pretty evenly devided between Model, HPR and EX. We're trying to provide all avenues of the hobby and it's all done according to the aplicable rules and codes.
That being said, it's my persoanl observation that the real threat is to HPR and EX. While ATF might want model rockets to go away too so their life will be easier, and rocketry as a whole being gone is 1 less problem for them to worry about, Models have never represented the threat to them, that HPR seems to have.
If you are only concerned about model rocketry and really think HPR is a threat, then you should want HPR & EX flyers to screw up as much as possible, so they will be outlawed. To me that's a bad atitude and hurts the hobby too.
What's best for the hobby is that Model, HPR & EX flyers all have a venue for their part of the hobby. If we lose any one of these areas, it weakens us all. There should not be any competion between the groups, instead everyone should be lining up on the same side of the issues at hand. Selfishness will only hurt us all in the end.
Randy http://vernarockets.com /
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wrote:

This should be in the FAQ.
"EX" needs to be renamed and redefined as "amateur".
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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snipped-for-privacy@charter.net wrote:

Which is really weird, since the rocketry materials that are most commonly misused for criminal purposes are modroc stuff -- Estes igniters, BP from motors, etc.

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My honest opinion:
EX is probably less threatened than HPR, at least from the standpoint of ATF regulations. Unless one is engaged in large scale commerce, the ATF does not have the time or resources to even care about a few guys (probably under a few hundred) making APCP in their home laboratories. APCP made for personal use isn't even regulated as long as no resale or trasportation in commerce is taking place. Even if it were, the gram quantities of homemade APCP that people use are virtually untraceable. The ATF has no way of knowing a given quantity of propellant even exists unless you tell them outright. You need to be on their radar for them to even consider caring about your situation.
If anything, I would argue that EX will prevail even if commercial high power rocketry were to go away. There are so many ingenious formulae and motor designs out there that any regulations can be circumvented. ANCP, candy, hybrid and bi-propellant engines are well within the capability of reasonably skilled amateurs (or teams of amateurs), and can even be commercialized in some cases. Due to the abundance of information (mainly due to the internet) and better technology, EX activites have the potential to be several orders of magnitude safer than they were 50 years ago (note how I say potential; safety lies solely on the part of the experimenter).
Even so, the situation is not really as bad as we all make it out to be. The people who want to fly rockets will always be able to do so, even if it means making sacrifices or unorthodox design modifications. At what cost? I don't know
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I guess you ain't happy unless you have something to bitch about. Your post is riddled with flames, yet you attached a "FFT" prefix to the subject? Hello?!? I've seen enough of your cry-baby BS. *PLONK*
IT'S A TV SHOW!! WHAT DID YOU EXPECT?
Lighten up, weenieboy.
--
Joe Michel
NAR 82797 L2
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Maybe so, but he IS correct, right?

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

Is he really, Jerry? Then you were violating the HPR codes when you used rocket motors to propel a rocket sled on the set of "The Running Man", right? What about those other movies you say you supplied motors for, did they violate NFPA codes?

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I didn't claim they were "HPR".
Gates (and others) at least on rmr did claim they were "HPR".
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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A. All TRA leaders are exempt from their own rules. Basis? The unwritten rules of course!
B. Those rules are for OTHER people. TRA BOD are "too important" for those rules. Important for what? Who knows. They say so and that's good enough for TRA members.
C. Where is "hang 'em high Phil" when you need him anyways?

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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wrote:

I told him to call the cops if the thinks a crime was commited.
Speaking of hang'em high, how about Ray, you and I go outfor one of his desert photo launches? We can relive one of the scenes from The Good, the Bad & the Ugly. We just have to figure out if you lean more towards the bad or the ugly. 8-)
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Let's go.
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

He's here, ready to string up "Hypocrite Jerry".
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shockwaveriderz wrote:

So -- a spot landing contest is illegal???
David Erbas-White
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Oh, and clearly TARC is illegal, because they are shooting for a TARGET altitude!
-- David

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