That is correct, at least according to most interpretations of the current legal situation. There may be a vendor or two which require LEUPs for those motors just to cover their butts. And there may be a local ATF agent or two with a different interpretation.
Furthermore, if you're flying with a club, you can usually fly larger motors without a LEUP via an arrangement with a person who does have a LEUP.
LEUP is not required for any solid rocket motors according to the law.
that would be correct, and it's how most dealers and launchs are acting under latly.
what jerry posts would be great in a perfect world, but it's not perfect unfortunatly anymore.
news:...
ok, jerry, lets say i buy a motor and dont have a leup. what legal documents will i need in order to defend myself besides the one you quoted below?
I looked at the web site in your sig, and i find sections quoted, along with personal comments that I am sure a judge would not find amusing.
let me knwo where i can find the regulations online so I may print them and keep a copy of them on my person and along with my rocket storage (not an explosives magazine since storing non-explosives in it would be a violation....right?)
p.s. in your Sig, you say "Opinion, the whole thing" then you complain about how other businesses are covering their butts. how come USRockets aint selling?
The ATF published an affitrmative defense document for you called "The Orange Book" which summarizes the laws they feel have jurisdiction over their agency.
Furthermore I have cited the law itslef so you could easily BUY a copy of 27 CFR for less than the cost of a 38mm I reload.
"Disrespectful pleadings" aside, the law is the law.
Right. I do believe the actual links are on that cite I stated and also you can always go to findlaw.com and find the links yourself easily since you have a full cite.
27 CFR 55.141 (exemptions) and 27 CFR 55.141 (definitions)I post that disclaimer on rmr posts so I can feel free to talk freely without being sued. I'll do all the suing around here thanks.
As for USR, when you see ads in the magazines that service the industry and clubs you are in, you can buy products, but till then, only those target markets being actively solicited for business can buy.
Jerry
Jerry, you readin the other posts i've been making?
I do not argue that. but the disrespecful pleadings could anger a judge to determine I am at fault, regardless of how much printed paper there is or how wrong the decision will be. If there is a "clean" copy available free online I would prefer to use it (not that i disagree about the comments, just that spitting in someones eye does not make them happy)
Thanks jerry, wasnt sure where to start.
well lets try not to sue anyone, bad for business and bad for the hobby. only good for the lawyer business
are in, you can buy products,
bit confused about these comments, but i'll leave it at that, as you have answered enough questiosn to keep me busy.
It also does not change their course of action either way and amuses the spitter.
Jerry
For a low-buck and low hassle L2 Cert project, consider this possible alterative...
Find yourself a current L2 guru who has a LEUP. You will need an L2 flyer to cert your attempt anyway... so try and find someone who would be willing to be a mentor for your project. If, for example, your cert attempt would take place at Bong... you might try to find an L2 guru who regularly fly's there, and is willing to work with you. You might be able to ... (1) Avoid the LEUP hassle and cost entirely if the motor is purchased by or is in the possession of the 'guru'. (2) Get your L2 cert. (3) Not risk breaking or bending any laws. (respects to Jerry :-)
Just a suggestion for keeping the cost and hassle factor down. Any comments welcome!!
-Scott Sager
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Why does every dumnshit have to start a rocket post with a request for an illegal permit that is so clearly and obviously NOT needed that lawyers for BOTH NAR and TRA even agree on this point?
27 CFR 55.141-a-8.
Stuff it.
Because being right is not a sure-fire guarantee against rotting in jail unless you have a lot of money to spend on lawyers.
But it *is* a *surefire guarantee* you will be subject to federal, state, county, local regulations surrounding explosives that everybody agrees are not explosives, EXCEPT for SHIPPING purposes.
It *is* a surefire guarantee you WILL subject your exempt non-explosives to TONS of regulations, the violation of any one of which is a felony with mandatory minimum sentences.
Yes, I think you need to volunteer unnecessarily for that in your life.
Yes, I do not see any alternative. Nor do you.
Jerry
This is a moron test.
I'm not volunteering for anything related to (non) explosives and ATF - I took up skydiving for my adrenaline fixes, the government pretty much pretends skydivers don't exist.
In my best Henny Youngman voice " If you don't like it, leave". And whenever you get there, tell me if their system of justice is any better. I'm sick of people thinking that people who have money can get them off of any crime. Ask Michael Milken or Leona Hemsley if that's the case. I think that you'll find that they disagree.
Mark Simpson NAR 71503 Level II God Bless our peacekeepers
Interesting link, Kurt. I followed Milken's railroading at the time and was amazed at what the gov't dd to him. He was the ultimate rich scapegoat. That's why it frosts my butt when clowns like John claim that the rich get all of the breaks because they can buy their way out. In reality, fisherman prefer a big fish.
Mark Simpson NAR 71503 Level II God Bless our peacekeepers
We spent quite a bit of time on the Milken/DBL case in a few classes. His work with "high yield securities" was quite interesting, as by spreading the risk in a manner similar to a mutual fund, the chance for investor loss was greatly reduced.
Now Boesky, on the other hand...
If anyone wants to know the real culprit in the savings loan mess, do a search on FSLIC and forbearance. Clue number one is what was going on with interest rates at that period of time.
Here is a start:
Oh yes, Leona - poster girl for your contention that the rich pay more than their share of taxes. What was that famous quote of hers?
Anyway, I agree with you - being right AND rich is no absolute guarantee against rotting in jail, but being rich sure helps.
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