Re: There is no PAD exemption.

Now we see why he is anonymous. He is avoiding libel charges. On the playa.

Answer the question. Cite the law or regulation. I need your protection.

This is the best you can do?

Selling APCP without a permit is a felony. I stand by that comment. If Jerry Irvine tried to sell a BATFE agent an "M" motor without a permit he is risking felony charges. Do you dispute this?

Libel my ass. You only hear this kind of crap when a man is losing the argument.

Anyone wonder what happened to Iz?

FLyA

APCP is on the explosives list. My case is made by the fact that you DO NOT sell your motors openly Jerry. Am I wrong about this?

Until you do all your Jerry-speak is pure BS. I know it. You know it.

FLyA

There is a PAD exemption.

Jerry wins!

Then use it to sell motors on RMR for use at independent launches.

This has nothing to do with the TRA and you know it.

FLyA

Let's see. Iz is gone. Jerry and Dave are resorting to name-calling and silliness.

Time to strike your colors gentlemen. You lost the battle.

FLyA

"Yeah, it's amazing that an organziation, let alone two would put up such an amount of cash to fight the BATFE only to roll over when they won".

What organization? I haven't seen an official statement from the "two". TRA/NAR don't make the rules for dealers so why should they make a statement. The rules are between the orgs and the permit holders.

Yes the ruling about the PAD letter was in our favor but enforcement is the key to the equation. The judge told the ATF to redo the rule through proper channels but did not set the original letter aside. Show me in the ruling where the judge told the ATF not enforce the rule until it was redone. Say you claim motors are PADS and you start selling. The ATF comes in and charges you with selling motors without a permit and you go to court and win. What will your defense cost? I would love to have the PAD exemption and wish Jerry was correct in his ranting. It would make things so easy for the dealers. Until the ATF acknowledges the exemption it does not exits. If you think it exists then challenge the ATF on it. Call all of the dealers and tell them you want a box of exempt PADS and that you have no ATF permit. Tell me what you get.

For once pick up the phone and call any ATF field office in the country and ask for a field level inspector. Ask him if the PAD exemption is in place for model rocketry motors over 62.5 grams of APCP. Before you can speak of what is regulated make the calls. Until you make the calls your are ignorant and speak from a position of opinion and nothing more. Make the calls. They won't even ask who you are for all of the fear freaks out there.

If jerry's motors were PADS he would sell them. He knows the motors are not legal to produce or ship. He knows he knows he knows. He refuses to state how TRA prevents him conducting business out side of TRA certs.

Why does Jerry continue to make his motors unavailable in the face his overwhelming conviction that his motors are not regulated?

What does knowing who someone is have to do with Jerry not doing as he says?

Hell I like Jerry and get along fine with him. In person he's a nice guy. I refuse to listen to how the motors are not regulated over and over and then the motors are not available. If they are PADS then sell them. Practice what you puke.

Are you that retarded? TRA/NAR.

You're arguing we never should have sued in the first place. We sued the government including this very point. We won this very point. What do our attorneys have to say.

You agree that there is a PAD exemption then. Your whole argument is based on agents taking illegal actions.

If you're pulled over because you're in the wrong neighborhood for your race, does that mean it isn't against the law to do so?

What a field office tells you is of no relevance. Different offices have told rocketeer so much conflicting information it's clear that only DC could issue an official statement. Anything of that importance for the club should come -from- the club. How long do we have to -wait- to hear from our attorneys.

Not if he couldn't ship them. Would you go into manufacturing a product knowing you could only deliver locally? Shipping has nothing to do with PAD.

TRA requires a LEMP document as proof of manufacturing facility. It's right in the TMT document. Even for non-explosives propellants such as Hypertek. Notice they weren't certified by TRA.

It's easy to hide behind words, isn't it.

Joel. phx

The exemptions at section 141 applies to the entire "part" - i.e., "part 55" which contains the requirements for manufacturer/dealer licensing, as well as well as those for user permits.

-dave w

At least it is obvious that TRA is not the cause of Jerry's not selling his motors publicly. It has everything to do with the fact that he is afraid to test his "PAD exemption" theory in the real world.

He would like to blame TRA for this but TRA does not enforce the explosives laws in the U.S.

Iz left for a reason. We all know why.

Did you pay Jerry for the motors that he has supplied to you Dave? I assume you were smart enough to pay cash?

FLyA

Jerry is the center of his universe. But to digress...

What I think, well sorta, kinda is... Jerry does not make certified motors, he does make or has made PADS. He cannot sell his PADS to recreational users, even if the users are certified. However, he can sell his PADS to some university and government researchers. Jerry hates the TRA, in part for their corruption, but mostly because they will not certify his motors on his own terms. Many people hate Jerry, not so much for his attitude, or the old T-shirt thing, but because he won't get his act together and get his motors certified, or more specifically, they hate him because he will not sell his motors to them. Jerry is a conundrum. I hope I don't get sued for calling Jerry the "c" word. ;)

Alan

TRA is operating in direct violation of the above language (NAR too). So of course it is TRA's fault. In fact Kosdon's motors were decertified on this issue alone!!

There is a PAD exemption.

Hmmm. I AM the center of the trolliverse.

Correct so far.

strongly disagrees with on SPECIFIC points

You're safe.

Jerry

Gotta keep the unsuspecting public at large safe :)

That's what "sheeple" do. They will follow a fat smelly dumbass over the cliff.

Well, he left, then you showed up. Both troublemakers. Both making summary allegations. Both bad for rocketry.

Zero net change.

Now that is something no one can dispute. ; )

Randy