PAD definitions

iz: so whats your point? State PAD definitions are almost taken verbatim from Federal PAD definitions....thats nothing new... do the same research and you will find a number of states that has copied the BATFE Explosives List verbatim in to their state law, including APCP being a explosive.... So if you live in certain states and you play with APCP you better be sure and have a state explosives permit, not only the BATFE one.... Because remember, the BATFE tells you to be in local and state compliance too....and last time I heard, you would much prefer to goto Federal prison than "good old boys State prison" if you catch my drift..... And I know this will make me unpopular, but I still say the PAD definition as far a rocket engine is concerned is a stretch....sorta like a "hail-mary" toss.... Nobody even knew what a PAD was , or that it supposedly defined a rocket engine, until all this BATFE LEUP BS started.... I never heard anybody refer to a rocket engine as a PAD..... "Wow, IZ, thats a mighty big PAD you got there in that rocket... what size PAD does that model take. Boy I wish the prices on these PAD prices would come down....yeah right....wishful thinking....take a look at the historical record .....not one mention of a rocket engine as a PAD.... There is a whole aerospace industry around PADS/CADS and the last time I looked, none were rocket motors...... This whole PAD thing kinda reminds me of the 62.5g limit that the NAR/TRA is fighting the BATFE over...we say they are trying to impose the 62.5 g limit, when the 62.5 g limit has already been imposed upon us by our own organizations via NFPA codes..... since 1968 too....

shockie B)

"Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed" wrote in message news:lsVzb.345156$ snipped-for-privacy@twister.nyc.rr.com...

==

CA

Group 18. Explosives and Pyrotechnics Article 113. Explosives and Pyrotechnics

?5237. Definitions.

"Explosives." Any substance or combination of substances that is commonly used for the purpose of detonation or rapid combustion which upon exposure to any external force or condition is capable of relatively instantaneous release of gas and heat.

"Explosives-Actuated Power Devices." Any tool or special mechanical device which is actuated by explosives, but not to include propellant actuated power devices. Examples of explosive actuated devices are jet perforators, shaped charges and similar devices.

==

DOT

...... Articles, pyrotechnic for 1.4S UN0432 II

...... Cartridges, actuating, ........... ................... .......... ............. ......... ......... ........... ........... ............ for aircraft ejector seat catapult, fire extinguisher, canopy removal or apparatus, see Cartridges, power device.

...... Cartridges, power device. 1.3C UN0275 II

...... Cartridges, power device. 1.4C UN0276 II

...... Cartridges, power device. 1.4S UN0323 II

==

Several non-economic issues also adversely impact the CAD/PAD industry. These predominantly involve government regulations concerning the environment, worker safety, and the transport of hazardous materials, export barriers, and small business set-asides. Another issue is government competition with private industry.

Classification of shipping: Nearly half the respondents described a lengthy and burdensome approval process to transport explosives for non-government contracts. CAD/PAD manufacturers must obtain a recommendation for classification from the American Association of Railroads, Bureau of Explosives (a private industry association), or from the Interior Department's Bureau of Mines. The recommendation is forwarded to the Department of Transportation, Office of Hazardous Materials, which issues a "letter of competent authority" to the manufacturer, who may then ship the product.

CAD/PAD firms reported the Bureau of Explosives lacks the resources to provide this service in a timely fashion. In extreme cases it has taken about a year. The Bureau of Mines typically provides the service in 1-3 months, but the fee is often excessive, ranging up to $450 to over $6,000, and the schedule unpredictable and insensitive to firm's planning. The Office of Hazardous Materials is currently issuing letters of competent authority to shippers in about one week. The Agency is also attempting to lessen the burden on industry by permitting items to be classified by grouping, worst case, or blanket classifications for like items.

==

....yeah

I'm starting to lean the other way, Shocky. The aircraft ejection seats have been in use for a long time. While I haven't actually seen or heard one used, I've watched Wings enough to know that I could put my Mini Magg up perty high on one. An aircraft ejection seat rocket motor is a PAD. Why isn't a Mini Magg motor a PAD too?

steve

rocket motors qualify as "Propellant-actuated devices" (PAD) as defined in 27 CFR

rocket motors do not qualify as the 29 CFR defined PAPD, as they are not made from smokeless propellant

some states have confused the definitions, juxtaposing the definition of one with the term for the other, and as some states use the 29 CFR PAPD definition for the 27 CFR PAD term, the federal 29 CFR PAPD and those states PAD terms are synonomous

• Note that this is not an example of "State PAD definitions are almost taken verbatim from Federal PAD definitions", but a complete redefinition of the 27 CFR term

ergo, rocket motors do not qualify as a PAD (for the purpose of State regulations), in those states WHERE the 27 CFR PAD definition has been replaced the 29 CFR PAPD definition

I have seen a mining application, where what is indistinguishable from a rocket motor is used to launch a projectile at the cave ceiling to cause unstable formations to fall, resulting in a safer environment. (I am still trying to locate that web reference, but I recall they use APCP specifically). That device is a PAD.

Earlier in the history of HPR, an ATF agent was asked if there were any federal explosives regulations that applied to rocket motors. The agent denied any applicability as they are exempt as PADS.

I am trying to find the eye-witness account.

It doesn't make any difference if a rocket motor can be considered a PAD. APCP is *clearly* not an explosive by the definition in the law as passed by Congress. If it can be regulated in violation of the law, PAD exemptions are even less likely to keep our APCP from regulation.

Tom

verily, yee speak Truth in its fullness

- iz ;)

Tom B> It doesn't make any difference if a rocket motor can be considered a PAD.

they do use a rocket motor..

shockie B)

have been in use

The 62.5g limit in the NFPA codes is to separate model rockets (for children) from high power rockets. That has nothing to do with the ATF or their asinine attempts to require explosives permits for non-explosive materials.

Then you agree that there is historical evidence of rocket motors being referred to as PADS?

steve

Yet as the moron you truly are regarding laws you do not see, or perhaps cannot see, that NAR imposes a per motor limit of 62.5g on ADULTS despite the:

1. FAA waiverless limit of 113g
2. The FAA notification limit of 125g
3. The NAR MR limit of 125g
4. The NFPA MR limit of 125g
5. The TRA MR limit of 125g
6. The Irvine 1983-5 unified 125g proposal on which 2, 3, 4, 5 arose.

Just the oracle of truth Jerry

"CAD/PADs are specialized work performing components used in many modern weapon systems. The cartridges use precisely measured propellant and explosive mixtures of varying compositions and burning characteristics that perform a wide variety of jobs within the weapon systems. They range in cost from about $1 to over $10,000 and may be purchased one at a time or by the thousands. The aerospace sector is the major user of CAD/PAD items. Many are used in life saving applications under emergency conditions. Major uses include aircrew ejection seats found on high speed aircraft, chaff and flare ejectors used as countermeasures to anti-aircraft missiles, bomb rack and missile releases, and missile fuel igniters. Commercial use has increased rapidly, especially with the advent of automotive airbag initiators, which are being phased in as a mandatory Federal safety requirement. Other commercial uses have also increased. These include mining and oil field development devices, emergency cutting tools, and fire extinguisher actuators."

I see no mention of PADS/CADS being model rocket or high power rocket engines used for sport flying.......

shockie B)

whats the difference between a propellant actuated device and an explosive propellant actuated device? shockie B)

a PAD uses a non-explosive propellant; i.e. the phenomena of pressurization arising from expanding cases is not the result of an explosion

a EAD functions explicitly by explosion

- iz

shockwaveriderz wrote:

the use of the terms "MANY are used in ...", "MAJOR uses INCLUDE ..." and "These INCLUDE ..." show that the list is not intended to be all-inclusive. Other uses are possible and still satisfy the definition

- iz

shockwaveriderz wrote:

it doesnt matter, ATF is going to enforce the law in whatever way they feel like it anyways....

So you expect them to list every possible use instead of examples as they have done?

Bob

Hobby is a minor and currently declining use. Negative growth does that to an industry.

Jerry

The NAR/TRA lawsuit is, of course, addressing the PAD issue. But you are correct, BATFE's official position is that rocket motors do not meet the definition(s) of PAD/EPAD and are not exempt from BATFE explosive regulation.