Re: 20mm ammo can as a type IV magazine?

I've been looking around at heavy-duty padlocks - the largest thickness that seems to be a common hardware store item is 7/16"... a 1/2" thick one would take some hunting around it seems.

I guess that must be why they picked that size - they don't want to make it too easy for just anybody to lock up their Explosives properly, now do they?

-dave w

My third solution (1/2" problem) was hitch pin locks. The ones I looked at were 5/8", round keyed (more than 5 cylinders) and $9 at walmart. If you search McMaster, 1/2 shackle padlocks can be had for $40, EACH. Though they only have 1" of clearance which might be a problem with a hood. The next larger are $138.

I posted several comments to ROL forums (regulations?) recently pointing out some solutions from Grainger for mortise locks (9 each). Grainger also has hasps with hoods for $20 each. Does it strike anyone funny that there is no specification for the dimensions of the hinges nor hasps?

Joel. phx

Well, nosing through that Mcmaster site, I find on page 2740 (next page) a

from Blaster's Tool and Supply Company at

Hmmm... interesting website...

Looking under "blasting machines", I note a typical spec: (These aren't the old T-handle contraptions any more - these days they're little electronic units...)

Hmmm... not sure what the standard "no fire" and "all fire" current ratings for "two ohm caps" are, but I doubt that they take any _less_ energy to fire than a standard e-match... which suggests that one of these doodads should be able to pop at _least_ that many e-matches.

The same way it's done with blasting caps: Simultaneously. In _series_.

That ought to light your cluster _real_ good. (With _full_ continuity testability through the ignition circuit from the remote firing point, and no car batteries or starter relays required...)

-dave w

fyi, the 1/2 inch shackle requirement is as per NPRM 968. Prior to that the requirement was 3/8 inch.

reference:

It seems to me (common since speaking here), that a simple fire proof safe from Wal Mart would be considered a suitable storage unit for APCP. Since the start of all of this LEUP mess, that is the one thing that has really bugged me. Not the fact that they want us to obtain the permits, but the absurd storage requirements. David

the "safe distance" requirements are impossible for anyone living in an urban area

- iz

Dlogan wrote:

That's basically what I've done and not had any issues with, but others have had opposite results. As with anything else related to the BATFE, everything is subject to the whim of the agent involved, and subject to repeated 180 degree reversals with each new agent.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Ammo boxes typically have hinges that interlock, and can only be removed when the box is open.

Indoor magazines only require one lock.

Indoor magazines don't require hoods.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I've been looking for 1/2" padlocks since I responded to the NPRM last spring. I've yet to see one in person in a hardware, tool, or other store. Nor have I seen any hasps for the larger shackle size. Best I've found is

My guess is that it looked good in print, they have absolutely no idea what is actually available, and they are suffering from a severe case of rectal cranial inversion.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Fireproof is not a requirement. Heavy steel is NOT a requirement. As I've said beofre, a cigar box, covered with aluminum foil, and secured with an appropriate hasp and padlock meets the specs. For off the shelf solutions, a good metal toolbox is a fine solution.

Agreed. Plus all the damn state and local regs that get dumped on you simply because some JBGT misclassifies a flammable solid as an explosive. Imagine if EVERYTHING that burned as well as APCP or could be made to explode easier than APCP required the same storage and licensing. It would sure make my commute to work easier...

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I have boxes which are hinged and others with flip off latches on both ends. There does not appear to be any reason that the flip latches should not count as a "hinge" (if secured) but I have read of individuals not being approved. Just had a thought that the rod bent to form the 'hinge' of the flip latches may not be welded to form a continuous loop, thus the 'pin' could be removed by pulling on 1 side.

This is partially correct and why I provided the link directly to the Subpart K. He did not specify whether or not his magazine was to be indoor or outdoor, nor if he felt he has what would be considered a secure room (see orange book link I provided or text below). Indoor magazines in a ""secure room"" only require one lock. The door to the "secure room" requires ALL the locking provisions previously stipulated. Some have had garages OK'd, but others have not. I do not see a garage as fitting "secure room", unless you have a door which you have 2 locks (or a separate entrance and secure the main from inside). It was also my understanding that they were trying to eliminate the "secure room" provision (though I cannot find such text in 968 link below).

Since "building" is not defined, a shed or fixed truck box with all the locking requirements should work as well. But you still have to buy the locks and now it's 3 locks (1-magazine, 2-secure room).

I would not suggest he build a magazine which will (quite probably) need modification within a years time. Plus 2 mortise locks are cheaper than a single 1/2" padlock anyway.

See previous comments. ""secure room"" indoor....

Joel. phx

"Indoor magazines located in secure rooms that are locked as provided in this subparagraph may have each door locked with one steel padlock (which need not be protected by a steel hood) having at least five tumblers and a case-hardened shackle of at least 3/8 inch diameter, if the door hinges and lock hasp are securely fastened to the magazine."

Locks are available online. See other posts. See also bicycle U-locks. I have not looked for hasps, but then I would modify existing or make my own. I will look at hasps at HD next chance I get. If it's possible to modify one, it won't cost $100 (and I'll modify or build one for someone wishing to run it past the atf).

Joel. phx

See

1. Who must meet storage requirements? All persons who store explosive materials must store them in conformity with the provisions of Subpart K of the regulations, unless the person or the materials are exempt from regulation. [18 U.S.C. 842(j), 845; 27 CFR 55.29, 55.141, 55.164,

Note the reference to 55.141.

A local friend just got nailed on this with his renewal. What they had approved 2-3 times previously was no longer OK. No rule changes, just a new interpretation. He went and built a concrete "secure room" inside his garage. I'd have thought it easier to instead get a compliant magazine. I've been eyeing a small gun safe or even smaller pistol safe at Farm&fleet.

Or perhaps I should get the larger box, and use it to lock up the JBGTs, and declare my magazine to be the OUTSIDE of the box. Topologically, it's equivalent :-)

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Go look at Sports Authority (or equivalent). They have large steel rifle safe which are put together with anti-theft screws and appears to meet the requirements. Only 2 issues are mortise locks swing instead of deadbolt (again NOT a requirement, but some offices,... $20 replacements) and non-sparking lining (I believe it's painted, but a can of bedliner is $10). The safe is on sale for Fireproof is not a requirement. Heavy steel is NOT a requirement. As I've

I'll chip in $5 to help fund anyone wishing to run that past the ATF. Technically a wooden box covered in sheetmetal is type4. Find a nice jewelry box and a Webelo to make a sheetmetal wrapper (for his Craftsman project) and throw 2 hasps on the front.

Joel. phx

That does not talk about construction of a type 4 magazine.

They (IAFAIK) have provided no comments other than on the 1/2" locking requirement as to the construction of a type 4 magazine.

Joel. phx

What non-exempt "explosives" are you going to put in this magazine?

Jerry