Re: 20mm ammo can as a type IV magazine?



Well it all starts here: http://www.atf.gov/explarson/fedexplolaw/subpartk.pdf A lot will depend on the local office (from comments I've read) though subpart K reads pretty clear. From a construction point of view:
"(2) Construction. Indoor magazines are to be constructed of masonry, metal-covered wood, fabricated metal, or a combination of these materials. The walls and floors are to be constructed of, or covered with, a nonsparking material. The doors must be metal or solid wood covered with metal.
{A coated ammo box certainly qualifies}
(3) Hinges and hasps. Hinges and hasps are to be attached to doors by welding, riveting, or bolting (nuts on inside of door). Hinges and hasps must be installed so that they cannot be removed when the doors are closed and locked.
{Depending on your boxes latches, this might be an issue. Don't count latches with rod from the latch to the lid to count for anything. Plus if hinged, the pin must not be removable}
(4) Locks. Each door is to be equipped with (i) two mortise locks; (ii) two padlocks fastened in separate hasps and staples; (iii) a combination of a mortise lock and padlock; (iv) a mortise lock that requires two keys to open; or (v) a three-point lock. Padlocks must have at least five tumblers and a case-hardened shackle of at least 3/8 inch diameter. Padlocks must be protected with not less than 1/4 inch steel hoods constructed so as to prevent sawing or lever action on the locks, hasps, and staples."
{Very interesting reading here. Notice mortise locks don't specify "5 tumblers" and don't require hoods. Plus, the ATF is trying to make the paddle lock shackles 1/2". Price out those paddle locks}
Keep in mind also: "Indoor magazines are to be fire-resistant and theft-resistant." {Note THEFT-RESISTANT}
Your best bet is to talk with individuals in your area who've gotten magazines approved.
Joel. phx

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Joel Corwith wrote:

I've been looking around at heavy-duty padlocks - the largest thickness that seems to be a common hardware store item is 7/16"... a 1/2" thick one would take some hunting around it seems.
I guess that must be why they picked that size - they don't want to make it too easy for just anybody to lock up their Explosives properly, now do they?
-dave w
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My third solution (1/2" problem) was hitch pin locks. The ones I looked at were 5/8", round keyed (more than 5 cylinders) and $9 at walmart. If you search McMaster, 1/2 shackle padlocks can be had for $40, EACH. Though they only have 1" of clearance which might be a problem with a hood. The next larger are $138. http://www.mcmaster.com/ pg 2739
I posted several comments to ROL forums (regulations?) recently pointing out some solutions from Grainger for mortise locks (9 each). Grainger also has hasps with hoods for $20 each. Does it strike anyone funny that there is no specification for the dimensions of the hinges nor hasps?
Joel. phx
Well, nosing through that Mcmaster site, I find on page 2740 (next page) a 1/2" shackle 7 cylinder padlock for $20.

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from Blaster's Tool and Supply Company at http://www.blasterstool.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdIDr4 [ http://tinyurl.com/2czp7 ]
--
Model 790 American Padlock: 1/2" Shackle - $53.95
3" Wide, 6 Pin, Key Retaining Currently Exceeds ATFE Requirements Case
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Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed wrote:

Hmmm... interesting website...
Looking under "blasting machines", I note a typical spec: (These aren't the old T-handle contraptions any more - these days they're little electronic units...)
http://www.blasterstool.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdIDP7 Voltage: 450, Energy: 8 joules, Capacity: 65 two ohm caps
Hmmm... not sure what the standard "no fire" and "all fire" current ratings for "two ohm caps" are, but I doubt that they take any _less_ energy to fire than a standard e-match... which suggests that one of these doodads should be able to pop at _least_ that many e-matches.
The same way it's done with blasting caps: Simultaneously. In _series_.
That ought to light your cluster _real_ good. (With _full_ continuity testability through the ignition circuit from the remote firing point, and no car batteries or starter relays required...)
-dave w
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fyi, the 1/2 inch shackle requirement is as per NPRM 968. Prior to that the requirement was 3/8 inch.
reference:
http://frwebgate2.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate.cgi?WAISdocIDY549566935+0+0+0&WAISaction=retrieve [ http://tinyurl.com/3buvl ]
--
E. Subpart K--Storage (excerpt)

Sections 55.208, 55.210, and 55.211 require that magazines be
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I've been looking for 1/2" padlocks since I responded to the NPRM last spring. I've yet to see one in person in a hardware, tool, or other store. Nor have I seen any hasps for the larger shackle size. Best I've found is 7/16". I've heard they can be ordered, but cost over $100 each. BTW, my current 3/8" padlocks were on the order of $10 each.

My guess is that it looked good in print, they have absolutely no idea what is actually available, and they are suffering from a severe case of rectal cranial inversion.
    Bob Kaplow    NAR # 18L    TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD"         >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD! <<< Kaplow Klips & Baffle:    http://nira-rocketry.org/LeadingEdge/Phantom4000.pdf www.encompasserve.org/~kaplow_r/ www.nira-rocketry.org www.nar.org
Save Model Rocketry from the HSA! http://www.space-rockets.com/congress.html
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writes:

Locks are available online. See other posts. See also bicycle U-locks. I have not looked for hasps, but then I would modify existing or make my own. I will look at hasps at HD next chance I get. If it's possible to modify one, it won't cost $100 (and I'll modify or build one for someone wishing to run it past the atf).
Joel. phx

what
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Bob Kaplow wrote:

as previously posted,
from Blaster's Tool and Supply Company at http://www.blasterstool.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdIDr4 [ http://tinyurl.com/2czp7 ]
--
Model 790 American Padlock: 1/2" Shackle - $53.95
3" Wide, 6 Pin, Key Retaining Currently Exceeds ATFE Requirements Case
  Click to see the full signature.
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Isn't it ironic that most rocketeer's magazines will cost significantly more than what's inside them?
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Isn't it moronic that the LOCK will cost more than a can of BP which wouldn't have to be stored if you bought a $100 pistol!!
Joel. phx
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I give you something more moronic
if you possess an antique or replica of an antique firearm or cannon you can store 50 lbs of BP in your kitchen cabinet right above your microwave, toaster oven and coffee maker
but if you intend to use 1 gram of that BP for use in a ejection charge for rocket recovery you will need to have the LEUP, the qualifying storage meeting the distance requirements, and store that 1 gram of BP in your magazine after completing the required log entry and while completing required periodic inventories
the other 22,678+ grams can stay in your kitchen cabinet with no LEUP, storage, distance, logging or inventory requirements
"But wait! That's not all!"
the DoJ/BATFE will send their law enforcement agents around from time to time to make sure your 1 gram is being properly stored and logged. Oh, and BTW, violations of your 1 gram BP storage requirement is a felony.
completely insane!
- iz
Joel Corwith wrote:

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I have to admit that is the "party line", but if you parse the exemption, it is "or" recreational uses. Which explains why rockets have been in a non-enfocement zone despite the (TRA/NAR) turn-ins and (agency) targeting.

ROFL.
I was told this very thing by the agent that allowed me to store 3300 pounds of APCP outside of the magazine (AFTER I asserted my rights) till I showed him the "or" languiage in the exemption. He was dumbfounded his superiors didn't "catch it". I was not dumbfounded in the least. :)

--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Jerry Irvine wrote:

well then, this handles the purported LEUP requirement for BP
- iz

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re 18USC40.845.a at http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/845.html
"Except in the case of subsections [1] (l), (m), (n), or (o) of section 842 and subsections (d), (e), (f), (g), (h), and (i) of section 844 of this title, this chapter shall not apply to:
(5) commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes in antique firearms as defined in section 921(a)(16) of title 18 of the United States Code, or in antique devices as exempted from the term ''destructive device'' in section 921(a)(4) of title 18 of the United States Code; "
(the excepted subsections relate to criminal acts)
looking more closely at this exemption, I am believe the meaning may be ambiguous. Observe:
parse 1: -------- commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds ... intended to be used solely for
sporting, recreational, or ( cultural purposes in antique firearms )
parse 2: -------- commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds ... intended to be used solely for
( sporting, recreational, or cultural purposes ) in antique firearms
- iz
Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed wrote:

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Ambiguous defalts to the defendant.
OR means OR
It is CRITICAL to remember that BOTH NAR and TRA consider 27 CFR 555.141-08 TOO AMBIGUOUS TO DEFEND VIGEROUSLY WITH ACTION AND DEED.
Jerry Irvine
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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BUT only if you believe "Jerry Irvine" and know he is NOT in jail!!!
(yet . . . )
Jerry
"Don't forget - you've been able to build and fly those large rockets because *someone else* has been able to discuss, and take action on, the very politics you want to shun. If we can't openly talk about the leadership or policies of our national/regional/local organizations, or the regulatory stuff that comes down the pipe from governments, then we can't do anything to effect change to them.
It's a dirty little fact of life, and you ignore it at your own risk..." - Len Lekx
"Making the simple complex is commonplace; making the complex simple, awesomely simple - that's creativity." - Charles Mingus
and the final word (inspired by golf-troll):
"Golfers are willing to pay more than rocketeers to lob small objects so far into the sky they cannot be seen by the unaided eye, then chase after them again and again." - Tom Emerson
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Just the meglomaniacs: Charles E Rogers Bruce Kelly Mark Bundick Jack Kane Mark Clark Tom Blazanin Dave Crisalli Dane Boles
and others.
Jerry
--
Jerry Irvine, Box 1242, Claremont, California 91711 USA
Opinion, the whole thing. <mail to: snipped-for-privacy@gte.net>
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Actually, this is incorrect. The explosives regs state that even if a material is not regulated (e.g., BP for antique firearms), it must be stored in accordance with the storage regulations.
However, since there are no reporting requirements for unregulated materials, there's no way for the ATF to inspect storage of BP, so in reality, I'm sure it's stored in many inappropriate places.
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