Question

TRA cannot stop Jerry from selling motors. To claim otherwise is ludicrous.

TRA can require a stool sample if they want. It's their right as an organization to request whatever they want to get a motor certified by them.

Jerry has a Jerry-BATFE problem. Not a Jerry-TRA problem.

FLyA

Nobody can stop JI from selling a motor except himself.

Whether he can/will be held accountable to the BATFE's interpretation of the law, whether or not he agrees with the legal interpretation that may drive any such action taken is a whole 'nuther matter.

I don't really think the NAR or TRA care whether or not JI sells motors. What they can do is refuse to certify them and tell their membership that they do not sanction the use of those motors at events sponsored by them and covered by their insurance. They are private organizations who probably have the right to make such a decision,. In the same manner Mr. Irvine could start an indy club where the rules are you cannot use a NAR/TRA/CAR certified motor. That would be his right.

While I do not agree with some of the ways people torment the man, I have to grudgingly agree that if JI does believe he is right, there would be a link on the USR webstore where someone who was interested can buy his motors and have them shipped to a private residence.

JI - If I can do this and missed the link, I apologize.

Al I think you are very reasonable in how you post. Just an observation.

FLyA on the PLayA

You are correct.

Jerry better hurry and start openly selling motors before his loophole (or so he thinks) is slammed shut.

Jerry has a BATFE problem.

FLyA

So is there any way (beyond just sending in comments) to _actively_ contest a proposed rulemaking? Don't those things occasionally end up having to go through court cases of their own, if someone sues to block the rulemaking?

-dave w

TRA doesn't prevent Jerry from selling motors. It does however have a policy that only certified motors can be flown at a TRA/NAR launch. By TRA not accepting any of his motors to certify (because of a multitude of reasons, whatever they may be), after everything that happened between them, they basically shut him out from his motors being flown at any NAR/TRA launches.

There is no "law" per-se that TRA has, that Jerry has been accused of violating. What has been alledged is him illegally shipping motors. Jerry's stance is that rocket motors are PAD's. Because he claims they are PADS, which he states from the NFPA code, he doesn't consider them explosives, and therefore does not need a Low Explosive Manufacturer Permit, which TRA requires from anyone submitting motors to be tested. Under certain provisions of the NFPA, that makes them exempt. HOWEVER, the ATF listed APCP as an explosive, which goes directly against NFPA interpretation. Now, to bring things up to date. As I understand it, from the court ruling just recently, the judge ruled that APCP is justified as an explosive, BUT, the ATF did not follow guidelines by saying that rocket motors are not PADS as defined. So, as it stands, from my understanding, rocket motors can be classified either as explosives, or, PADS depending on who's opinion your getting, BUT, that will only be until the ATF submits the required NPRM stating that rocket motors are not PADS, but explosives. It's only a matter of time before all of this BS is irrelevant.

Even Jerry's not fool enough to confuse the PAD issue with the DOT issue. Why do you suppose the trolls can't keep it straight?

Incorrect.

And the judge in our lawsuit...

Yes, an LEMP is a required document, even for NON-Explosive motors. Does that make sense to you?

Incorrect.

Incorrect.

Probably ought to straighten out your understanding before you try to 'bring it up to date'.

Hint: APCP motor. APCP was ruled as 'explosive', but motors ruled PADs.

You mean like the federal judge in our lawsuit?

So you agree that right now rocket motors are PADS.

Joel. phx

Oh it's straight Joel. We have it real straight.

Iz is gone. Think about it.

FLyA

You're going too? So sorry, will it be a new name and account?

Troll.

Joel. phx

What you write makes no sense Joel.

Iz is gone for a reason.

FLyA lives on.

Jerry sells no motors openly and it has NOTHING to do with TRA.

Try and stay focused.

Iz Iz in trouble?

FLyA

Even though rocket motors were ruled exempt from explosives regulations as PADs, TMT rules require an LEMP for motor certification. Not only that, there is no exception for non-explosives. Are you enjoying paying for that logic?

I am. You're the one who brought up Iz. You sure have a *fixation* on these two.

Joel. phx

Say, could you start another thread where you reply to yourself under a different account?

Who -but you- cares what happened or happens to him?

I wonder, are the makers of smokeless powder required to have LEMP's, even though there is an exemption for smokeless powder? What about the makers of ammunition? That too is exempt. Anyone know if they are required to have LEMP's? How about manufacturers of things that the ATF acknowledges are PADs, such as tool cartridges -- do they have LEMPs?

Seems to me that finding out the answer to those questions would tell us what we need to know about manufacturers of other exempt items such as rocket motor PADs. That would settle everything and we could stop the "I think it means this... No I think it means that" stuff.

1. The queston has been answered many times.
2. You are a mere anonymous troll. Exepct nothing.

This should be in the moron straightening FAQ.

Iz is gone. Jerry you better behave yourself because you know the thin line you walk.

You do not sell motors on RMR because you know you are risking a felony if you do.

Seeing as how you won't argue that point nor the point that TRA has nothing to do with you selling motors it appears... like Iz... that you have lost the battle and the war.

FLyA

Jerry-speak for "I am afraid of the BATFE so I refuse to openly sell my motors. It's not TRA giving me problems... it's the Feds."

Or something like that.

FLyA

The one way the NAR/TRA prevents JI from selling his motors are called the NFPA codes...specifically NFPA 1125..... Code for the Manufacture of Model Rocket and High Power Rocket Motors... In NFPA states ONLY NAR/TRA certfiied motors are allowed to be sold.... He could sell all he wants in the Non-NFPA states if he so desired....

I suppose the argument could be made that its not the NFPA codes that prevent JI from selling his motors, its JI that prevents JI from selling his motors as JI will not submit to the requirements of either the NFPA codes, nor the CA Pyro codes,nor the DOT nor the BATFE so.....

shockie B)

Actually, that's not true. Since they're not classified as "model rocket" or "hpr" motors, the CA pyro codes call for al least a pyro 2 licensee to be in charge. When Jerry and I launched my rocket on his motor we had a pyro 1 licensee on site (so we could fly a liquid propellant rocket also), and were therefore one notch more "licensed" than we would have needed just for Jerry's solid motor.

-dave w

Nobody has to wonder about anything. Call the ATF office nearest you and ask. It is that simple.