Rocket Challenge on Discover

Several things, but most obviously, complete and utter lack of range control - to wit, launching with people wandering around unprotected in the potential impact zone. You've got 50+ lb models, potentially supersonic, unguided, with no means of flight termination. And 500 people wandering around at close to ground zero with no overhead protection. The potential for lawn dart injury is clear enough, but even under parachute, models this big are clearly able to inflict damage or serious injury.

You'd never, ever see a professional range, or a qualified amateur range, allow people in the potential impact zone without some protections like a blockhouse, or some other way to stop the vehicle if it goes off course. It's acceptable for modrocs *only* because of the "frangibility clause" (which is getting stretched to the breaking point already). 30-40-50 lb solid graphite/epoxy models should not be launched over or within range of unprotected crowds/spectators. Period. That one gets away with it for a while hardly constitutes a data point to the contrary.

Other little niceties -

propellant mixing in plastic buckets(static generators), with no apparent idea of ESD protection, then in a surplus electric bakery mixer, then cutting the cured fuel grains with an electric miter saw. All with absolutely ZERO safety protection. I'll clue you in - then they machine propellant at Thikol, UTC, etc, they do it in PROTECTED CELLS with NO ONE PRESENT. They do blow up the occasional drill press or lathe, but no one gets hurt.

Untested P motor with untested ejection scheme - it doesn't matter that it happened to work, it was still irresponsible in front of a huge crowd. Testing should be part of the cost of doing business - if you can only afford to make one motor, then you probably shouldn't build it. Make 3 motors that fit the budget - and test the first two before launching the third over a crowd.

Model to 40000 feet vertically can probably go 15 miles if it tips off at the worst possible angle - so maybe you shouldn't launch it in a

20-25 mph wind. There were complete non-participants within 15 miles, even in Kansas. It's OK if you are willing, as a participant, to take the chance, but you DO NOT have the right to risk anyone else's well-being.

Launching into and through clouds - well, there probably weren't any airplanes up there, you had a waiver. On and on...

Hey, if everybody wants to be a big shot and fly large models, fine by me - but I think a lot of the time that goes into "designing" flying porta-johns could have been put towards even the most minimal safety considerations. If you want to be an expert - MASTER THE WHOLE PACKAGE, and that means actually thinking through the range with the same loving care you waste painting on the flames.

This isn't just a model rocket launch scaled up - the approach needs to be completely different, and if it interferes with your fun, then tough shit. The ATF doesn't need to make a film, they just need a VCR.

What scares me the most is that no one even seems to have considered any of these factors - perfectly nice folks, no intentional malice, not demons or yahoos, but apparently TOTALLY OBLIVIOUS to the potential for disaster.

Brett

Ok, that's cool. I may not have the same idea (or experienced as many) of HPR launches, but the ones I've been at have had mistakes, but not what I would call blatant or continuing disrespect of the safety code. "realistic coverage of what usually goes on at high-power launches." I wouldn't consider our regular launches HP, but I've seen some issues, so it's not just limited to HP. I think it's a matter of people not stepping up and saying 'hey, stop that' (because I've seen the activity stop when someone does). But more so the leaders (national and regional) not saying 'if this happens again, you loose X'. What sort of threat would work? Actually, for kids it's rewards, so maybe a web page of the clubs with the least safety infractions?

I tend to agree, but I've read more in the paper about kids shooting rockets too close to soccer games than reported incidents at rocket launches (heck,even of reporting the launch). Soccer moms can be a big squeaky wheel to the government.

If a rocket prangs and no one is around, does that violate a safety code? ;)

Joel. phx

I don't know if you've seen the thread on the Canadian cert hopeful & LDRS, but I couldn't see a way to make the 'fly with a LEUP friend' work there (prohibited as an alien). If you have any ideas,..

Jerry Jerry Jerry, the CORRECT retort is "So people should be banned?".

Keep trying grasshopper. ;)

Joel. phx And how do you deal with the few [often 'experts'] who overstep those bounds?

Not if the organization itself is causing the actions and violations.

27 CFR 555.141-a-8

Zoot,

Sorry, but I don't think that video of rockets exploding or an ambulance pulling up to the flight line is good for our public image. It certainly isn't "?the best advertisement possible for us." Not unless you want to scare the pants off every parent out there.

We were lucky that the video editor didn't focus on those aspects more than they did. There are going to be a lot of young kids begging their parents to allow them to come out and fly rockets after seeing these programs. Mom and Dad are going to remember seeing huge fiery rockets, explosions, rockets crashing to the ground, and an ambulance pulling up. They will not remember that the crowd was safely far away, if they even noticed that at all. Then it will be, "Sorry son, not until you're older."

On the bright side, we'll get them for sure after they've grown up because they too will remember seeing huge fiery rockets, explosions, rockets crashing to the ground, and lots of people having tons of fun.

Regards, Michael Newton

Imagine the number of hits if these factors were not totally prevelent?

Point.

About age 15-21then they can "do it at home" as well and be busted by the zero tolerance, terroruist paranoid police state.

Bob,

I didn't say there weren't any. I only said that I hadn't seen any. And we watch the Discovery channel a lot, and we used to watch PBS a lot as well. Unfortunately, I don't think our satellite feed provides any PBS channel. I guess I must have missed them all. Probably because I'm on the west coast. I still think that this was the first nation-wide broadcast of a program dedicated entirely to ?amateur' rocketry. (yes, yes I know it wasn't actually amateur rocketry. )

I really hope it isn't the last too. I want to see lots more!

Regards, Michael Newton

Hmmm many comments worthy enough to leave totally intact.

I guess my bias is that I have never been to a "REAL" high power launch. all my launches have been modroc with some hpr tossed in here and their for spice. so when I looked at it I was looking at it from that perspective.

the "fuel cutting" etc.. DID startle me as really freaking dangerous. I do not know how to and do not know the means in which it is done but even to me that looked very "risky"

I was also shocked at how HEAVY some of those models were. my haviest model was 13 pounds and that was because it have a 10x6foot solid 2 inch delta wing !!

Chris Taylor

well-being.

Ooh - I forgot the BIGGEST faux pas of the whole evening -

Who was the "rocket scientist" who said BP won't work at high altitudes because "there isn't enough oxygen".

40 lashes with a wet Fat Boy for you, sir!

You're missing the point.

If a police officers dies in the line of duty, the department typically won't tell the spouse what happened. The result is, the spouse imagines all the possible ways the officer died - and invariably comes up with far worse scenarios than most horror movies.

C.O.P.S. (

) has been fighting to have survivors told the truth. It allows the family to move on and put the horror scenarios away. I met the founder at a conference a decade ago.

In the same way, people are going to wonder about what happens if something goes wrong at our launches. Everyone I've told to watch the program has asked me to take them with them to the next high power launch. I wonder if I can get them to go to the NAR launch in Nov.? I asked each of them about the safety factor, and each has stated that they had been concerned about having their children around these rockets until they saw the show. The explosions happened far away. I had to explain the one accident - no one stuck around for the third hour, but they saw the incident in clips. When told what happened, they pointed out that I put myself in the hospital from tripping while running this summer -with far worse injuries.

Truth is a disinfectant.

Ok, it's Veteran's Day, not Public Safety day, but I feel like pulling out my videotape "Ultimate Survivors" and watching it today. It's hard to watch - especially the segment about Kenyon Tuthill.

) An irate motorist he'd ticketed shot him in the face point blank range, destroying his lower jaw, most of the mandible, his nose, one eye, and severely damaging the other eye.

I met him at the same conference I met the C.O.P.S. founder at. Even I found it hard to look him in the face. Plastic surgery can only do so much. But realizing that he found the strength to go on is always an inspiration.

And yes, that is the tape William Shatner narrates.

Zooty

Wasn't Bruce Lee also Cato :-)

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

Unfortunately, we had a perfect example of this just over 2 years ago...

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I've tried the "stop that" at many launches. I find that certain folks are so ingrained with unsafe practices because they've been allowed for so long that telling them to stop does no good, and 5 minutes later they are back at it. Specifically, I'm refering to smoking while prepping, or in the prep areas. As a result of BATF regs, you can't smoke ANYWHERE on a rocket field unless you are at least 25' away from any place an HPR motor might be. That makes the entire prep area off limits. Yet at a big launch I always see people violating that rule. And it's ALWAYS the TRA folks, even at an NAR launch.

Bob Kaplow NAR # 18L TRA # "Impeach the TRA BoD" >>> To reply, remove the TRABoD!

I've seen nearly the same exact words used before, and in each case, they were referring to not having enough atmospheric pressure to get a good burn.

One message I saw described the situation as having too little air to conduct the heat from one BP particle to the next, and the particles being dispersed without enough of them being ignited. As a result - sspphhtt.

Anyway, I'm sure Terry would like a do-over :)

Doug

FUD

Rockets are exempt from BATFE.

It is not illegal to smoke while prepping M reloads. It just "looks bad". And is a "bad idea".

Jerry

The reason why ejection charges typically don't work is the space between the ematch and the BP is a cold oxygen deprived zone. Talking high altitude here gents. Often the BP is scorched but does not ignite. Putting the ematch and BP in a sealed pressurized container solves that.

Just Tech Jerry

Jerry Irvine wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@corp.supernews.com:

They're probably insoluble. They sure seem to be immiscible.

Now don't get irascible...

len.

kaplow snipped-for-privacy@encompasserve.org.TRABoD (Bob Kaplow) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@eisner.encompasserve.org:

Also, the "it hasn't blown up in our face yet, so that proves it's safe" syndrome. This bit NASA on the butt twice.

len.