Separate Magazine for Ignitors???

Do you have local storage? Are you allowed to store igniters in the same mag as the reloads and BP? If not, what kind of mag do you have the igniters in? Do Tripoli or NAR have any advice or regs to cite for variance on the explosive/detonator thing as it applies to propellant/igniter?

Tom K.

It's all about what your agent wants and what your local fire marshall requires. I can't think of two people for whom the requirements have been the same, even locally. I won't say anything about what I do for fear that some helpful individual will toss a monkey wrench in my situation.

The process is "fubar'd".

I have been dealing with snarky people all day, so if I have been snarky as well I apologize.

Of course he did, be the confrontational/anti government zealot that he is..(:-)

I agree that there is a good deal of subjectiveness in the process, however, when given a hard reference like Ruling 2002-3, the local joe has to comply with it.

Anybody have a similar doc for the igniter thing?

I Just recieved my Permit in the mail Today. Type 34 User of Low Explosives!

Tom,

I am going through the same process here in Rochester.

The fastest way to a permit is to "Yes sir, thank you sir" to whatever the agent wants. Ask him for advice, suggest a small lockable metal tool box to store the miniscule amount of igniters you will need, and maybe he'll say fine and you are all set. Arguing or resisting will just set the bar higher I am afraid.

Also for the other comments, if anyone thinks that APCP is coming off the explosive list anytime soon I think they are setting themselves up for major dissappointment (IMHO).

jd

Tom

I am going through the same process down the thruway from you. Got the "local jurisdiction" permission and now waiting for the ATF.

I am afraid the shortest path to a permit is "Yes sir, thank you sir, may I have some more advice please" with regards to the ATF agent. A small locked metal box to hold your igniters should do the trick. A small box can store a whole lot of matches and igniters.

Good luck and hope to see you at some launches this season.

j from MARS

I think in this case the agent is wrong, but that may not matter.

I believe that it is true that high explosives and detonators have to be stored in separate magazines, but rocket motors and igniters are both classified as low explosives and low explosives can be stored together in a type 4 mag. I will dig more on this and see what the regs say.

Nevertheless, the shortest path to a permit may be "Yes sir, thank you sir, may I have more advice please" with regards to your agent.

27 CFR 555.213(b) has the restriction on detonators:

(b) Detonators are not to be stored in the same magazine with other explosive materials, except under the following circumstances: (1) In a type 4 magazine, detonators that will not mass detonate may be stored with electric squibs, safety fuse, igniters, and igniter cord. (2) In a type 1 or type 2 magazine, detonators may be stored with delay devices and any of the items listed in paragraph (b)(1) of this section.

27 CFR 555.202 describes the different classes of explosives:

For purposes of this part, there are three classes of explosive materials. These classes, together with the description of explosive materials comprising each class, are as follows: (a) High explosives. Explosive materials which can be caused to detonate by means of a blasting cap when unconfined, (for example, dynamite, flash powders, and bulk salutes). See also Sec. 555.201(e). (b) Low explosives. Explosive materials which can be caused to deflagrate when confined (for example, black powder, safety fuses, igniters, igniter cords, fuse lighters, and ``display fireworks'' classified as UN0333, UN0334, or UN0335 by the U.S. Department of Transportation regulations at 49 CFR 172.101, except for bulk salutes). (c) Blasting agents. (For example, ammonium nitrate-fuel oil and certain water-gels (see also Sec. 555.11).

Note that igniters are given as an example of low explosives.

The definition for detonator is:

Any device containing a detonating charge that is used for initiating detonation in an explosive. The term includes, but is not limited to, electric blasting caps of instantaneous and delay types, blasting caps for use with safety fuses, detonating-cord delay connectors, and nonelectric instantaneous and delay blasting caps.

There is no definition given for igniters. Which would be useful as the term is somewhat ambiguous. There are igniters in turbojet engines which are obviously not explosive and I seem to recall that the British, with their somewhat different approach to some terms, refer to spark plugs as igniters.

"Detonators that will not mass detonate must be stored in a separate magazine and the total number of electric detonators must

not exceed 5,000."

So this appears not a discretionary rule but perhaps in the past discretionary enforcement.

The fastest path to a permit is "Yes sir, Thank you sir" with respect to ATF agents....

jd

I find that mine prefer Smithsonian and National Geographic. I've allowed them to read Extreme Rocketry, Sport Rocketry, HPR and Rockets, but they tell me they know all that stuff already, and they're bored by it....

Did the ATF inspector say you needed another type 4 mag for your igniters?

I hate to say this, but since it involves a variance it doesn't matter. The ATF is not obligated to grant variances. 2002-3 outlines the minimum requirements. From what I've heard, the requirement for separate storage of igniters is pretty common for attached garage variances. It's silly but if you work with your inspector (and DC if necessary) you can find a path of least resistance. A Type 2 detonator box isn't hard to construct.

Two magazines. One for motors/BP. One for ematches.

The ematch magazine is a pistol cabinet with a three-point locking mechanism and five-pin circular lock. Here is a similar cabinet, but I do not know if this one has a five pin lock.

Tom,

I am not that far yet. I have the local permission and my ATF application is in. I have two "magazines" ready. One is a usexplosive type 4 for the motors and I have a homemade one made from a metal toolbox for igniters if necessary.

I would suggest going the surplus ammo box (installed with locks) for igniters and be done with it (pending inspector approval of course).

jd