Topic for Myth Busters

How many species have gone extinct before humans came along? Extinctions happen. The CA condors are a relic of an era that is long gone. Sooner or later they'll go the way of the mammaths and sabertooth tigers, with or without us.

Being able to analyze trends in enzyme development will be invaluable. That requires a lot of species.

You'd wipe out big chunks of the available data.

I'm sure glad you're psychic and can determine what the results of an experiment would be before you do the experiment. You know which species are expendable without studying them? Amazing.

Back in high school chemistry class, did you draw the graph and then plot the points?

It was humans that did in the mammoths and sabertooth tigers, too. But you didn't know that, did you?

It's not a question of their time having passed. It's a question of bad management of resources.

At least primitive man was ignorant and didn't realize he could wipe out those species. Modern man doesn't have that flimsy excuse.

There's a difference between species that go extinct on their own and conducting a wholesale slaughter because we're too lazy to do otherwise.

You're right up there with the folks they interview on the news and in the paper who say "We don't need to go into outer space because we should spend the money on poverty right here."

It's the same attitude, just expressed in a different way, and I respect it just as much.

Zooty

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com (RayDunakin) wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@mb-m15.aol.com:

And you'll certainly never find out if they could have if they're not around.

len.

But there is also a cost associated with preserving every species. At what point do the potential benefits of preservation outweigh the quantifiable costs (of said preservation)?

When Ray's taxes go up ; )

Are you seriously suggesting that the condor hasn't been studied??

No, I'm saying that people matter and are just as much a part of the ecological system as the animals. You treat people like they are a some kind of outside factor, or disease, and seem to think they have no rights to protect their interests.

Well, not in my back yard! ;)

Alan

In another Ng, while discussing homeland security, someone stated that they wanted to be a gunner on a sky scraper. The implication was that this was a reference to comic book or SF literature (maybe Flash Gordon?) Does anyone know which story had gunners for defense of skyscrapers?

Alan

Yes, I am seriously suggesting that the enzyme systems of condors have not been evaluated to find out what particular aspects were optimized. We barely have the technology to do this with incredibly simple systems today.

Do you even know what we're talking about?

You've insisted on making a false dichotomy about a topic you clearly don't have the minuscule understanding of.

You think that research on biologicals is a waste and have no appreciation for the varieties of life we now observe. The folks in the paper have no appreciation for the knowledge to be gained from space exploration nor an appreciation for the desire to explore and learn.

Same road. Different dips.

Zooty

Actually, in my backyard. My wife has gathered numerous endangered Pennsylvania native plant species and created habitats for them in our backyard. She gathered them legally, I might add.

The neighbor kids have learned about the medical, food, and ecological uses of these plants. They've watched a monarch butterfly hatch from a chrysalis. They've found out that there are Pennsylvania native cactus that produce edible fruit. They found out there are really cool looking Pennsylvania native orchids.They've learned about the purpose of nitrogen-fixing bacteria in the soil. They've studied the effect of insect predators on bad insects, including helping to set up a bat box. They've picked pints of fresh raspberries from our bushes. They've learned how to bonsai. They've learned how to estimate the volume of a pond and size a pump accordingly. We explained to them which plants Lewis and Clark discovered in their travels. They learned about controlling mosquito nymphs with bacteria and fish. We've shown them American toads progressing, from eggs to small adults. They've learned the scientific naming system for plants and why it's used. They've studied random mutations in wild plants and how they can be propagated. They've found out what plants attract what insects and how the plants optimize the response to improve pollination. They've learned about how to use a mulch pile to cut down on yard waste. There was also an economic lesson about buying bags of leaves for aspects of mulching, but I think we learned the kids knew more than we did about economics.

They don't seem to have learned the lesson about the inverse correlation of strawberry size and taste. They keep coming back to eat the small everbearing strawberry fruit and commenting on how much better the berries taste than the huge crap from the stores.

The avian wildlife is pretty interesting, especially the occasional visit from a sharp-kneed hawk. Those suckers are big!

They learned how not to build a pergola and how to build a small bridge. While a few might have heard some choice words during some trial and error engineering, they claim that it in no way expanded their vocabulary.

They've been learning biology, chemistry, physics, trigonometry, calculus, history, economics, woodworking, and cooking. They also get fresh herbs out of the garden for their parents to cook with and seeds for any plants they're interested in growing.

They've been learning with their parents and finding out their parents aren't quite as dorky as they thought.

Several boy scout troops have asked to have seminars taught to them in our backyard early summer this year.

The ones that we didn't inspire with ham radio, R/C cars or 6 ft. tall rockets have been taking an interest in science because of the yard.

And then there was the zip line across the neighbor's back yards ending at one of our trees. One little offhand remark and the kids are out buying steel cable and getting their Dad's 2 ton come-along. That was after learning about the modulus of elasticity of climbing rope that I donated. Hopefully Mrs. Zooty never finds out I went for a ride on the zip lines several times, especially during the design stage when safety had not yet been optimized. Hitting a tree at 15 mph doesn't hurt as much as you'd think.

Zooty

Wrong on both counts. I do think there should be some balance in how we approach these things.

How are you able to evaluate what a balance is when you don't even understand the questions that need to be asked?

Zooty

Arbitrarily.

VERY nice, seriously.

However there are many species that I would not like living nearby. And while I'm sure we can learn a lot from species like the plague, I can live without it.

Alan

Ah, but determining what we can live with and without is a big trick. FUD is a big problem there, too. Ever notice that folks in the country don't tend to get lime disease, while suburbanites do? Lime disease symptoms were virtually unknown 200 years ago. Very interesting reason - large predators to keep deer populations in check and eat the sick ones.

A co-worker had a pet gaboon viper. We always wondered if it would be better to take him to the hospital or the zoo if he was bit. We decided it was immaterial, since no one would be willing to go in and get him from his house.

My neice had many wonderful pet rats while growing up. Now that she's older, she went for a dog. Mourning the passing of a beloved pet every

A lot of folks hate pigeons. I think they're cool, they've adapted to city life amazingly well, and if you've ever been privileged to see a peregrine falcon take one down...it would be a shame to live in a world where that doesn't happen occasionally where you can see it live.

Zooty

Well, so far we've managed to live without every species that has ever gone extinct.

Personally I think that's the only thing pigeons are good for: Falcon food. ;) But that's just me.

BTW, we've got a beautiful sharp-shinned hawk in our neighborhood who likes to visit our patio area now and then, trying to catch one of the little birds that are attracted to the feeders. Really cool to watch him, especially in action.

For years, we've had Western Fence Lizards living in and around my cactus garden. Those little guys are fun too, and I've trained some of them to eat from my hand. Did that with an alligator lizard in the wood pile last summer too.

I'm often amazed at the amount of wildlife living in the suburbs, virtually right under people's noses and usually most folks aren't even aware of them.

And we might never know what we lost, either.

The thing I have trouble explaining to people is that humanity will not wipe out life on earth. We don't have the technology yet.

We are the apex predator, though. Ever notice what happens to apex predators when the environment turns crappy?

We won't be any different.

Zooty

We all seem to not care about that WRT all the former members of NAR and TRA keeping their distance and prospective new members keeping their distance from NAR/TRA/HPR because of the INTERNAL CLUB POLICIES requiring ATF permits for manufacturers, dealers, and consumers.

Simple change, HUGE leverage of membership rush back in.

Zero cost. No outside approval needed. No downside.

None.

Jerry

But NOT done.

NAR and TRA hate rocketeers, growth and rocketry.

Jerry, Do you know what the thread was about?

Do you even read the posts that you respond to?