[TRA-EX] Exposed

Sore loser.

They are only mean to me because they fear me.

The problem is that ATF doesn't currently accept that definition. They have in the past, but now they don't. They also have guns and badges. Does that mean they are right? Of course not. It does mean that anyone who wishes to challenge them had better have very deep pockets, lots of free time, and willing to risk their reputation and freedom.

Are you volunteering to be the "test case"? Is anyone from ARSA volunteering for this?

Well Jerry I have come around to your side. There IS no point in trying to get your motors certified.

Joel. phx

I'm not the one claiming the world is out to get me.

You got beat up a lot in school, didn't ya?

C'ya plonk.

what is that, your Ray Dunakin imitation?

- iz

Jerry Irv> >

you said IF he has an opposing cite and does not post it

if no opposing cites exist, and he cannot have one because one does not, he did not meet your conditions for the expletive

:)

- iz

Ray,

David is stressing the importance of us vigorously stressing the pad exemption exists in law, instead of letting the BATFE go unchallenged

- iz

RayDunak> Duane wrote:

sorry, I meant Duane

;)

- iz

Ismaeel Abdur-Rasheed wrote:

Welcome to the JI free zone.

It's much more pleasant here.

Hey, what happened to 90% of the daily postings?

Joel. phx

Doesn't take long too read "over here".

He said he had one. He said there was a law he was referencing.

We all know he was relying on hearsay from TRA his personal mothership.

fear.

it will take more than one Ray. collective shallow pockets.

-hence-

more fear. You know a singular fall guy will get run down whether right or wrong, and it will prove nothing. This has to be a paradigm shift by the majority.

As a representative of ARSA? Really Ray...

We could *start* by not trying to act as police on shipping procedures. Shipping has NOTHING to do with safety and performance of the hobby. If the shipper does not comply, it is his/her neck on the line, not the hobby. That is just a *small* first step.

Problem is, not only do the orgs require this, but they go further than this by requiring specific types of shipment as a standard that does not apply to all types of motors.

Org, "It must be controlled as explosive." ATF, "Explosives must be limited."

Maker/Shipper, "It's not an explosive!"

What reasons are there to continue this policy? How does that serve the interest of the hobby? How many more motor makers would we have available if this type of control was not in place? A vendor like AeroTech burning down would not have affected the hobby as badly, at such a critical time. The only good thing that did was make people look at alternatives (like hybrids, AM/EX, etc.).

~ Duane Phillips.

I have repeatedly volunteered, been volunteered, succeeded, and NAR and TRA still refuse to cede to even demands from ATF and DOT to stop trying to enforce rules for them.

Tap, tap, tap, is this thing on?

Except that people don't get busted or tried collectively.

No, as a "put your money where your mouth is" move. If this notion of ignoring the ATF until they take you to court is ARSA's official policy (who can tell??) then they should be the ones to do it.

No one claims that it is. But DOT approval is a requirement of the law.

Can you prove that? Do you have anything from DOT or ATF stating that recipients of illegally manufactured or shipped motors will not be in violation of the law? Furthermore, how does this attitude square with ARSA's stated position on compliance with all laws and regulations?

Until the law, or the enforcement of the law, is changed, the certifying authority has to go by what is being enforced.

You mean, how many more manufacturers illegally selling and/or shipping certified motors? After all, that is what you are asking for.

We got through it, and yes it did make people look at the alternatives. Not only hybrids and EX, but also CTI, AMW and (to a lesser extent) Ellis. If these other manufacturers can do things legally, why can't others?

Hasn't Jerry been the "test case" for years? Since apparently he doesn't have a LEMP and "his" motors are for sale and do show up at unaffiliated launches, he has indeed challenged ATFE. And he makes really BIG motors; big enough to attract attention so it can't be the ATFE doesn't know he exists. As far as I know, the ATFE has not prosecuted or jailed him, nor have they wisked him off to that unfriendly place in Cuba. Could it just be that ATFE hasn't arrested him because they know rocket motors are exempt and that a judge would dismiss any of their attempts at prosecution? Such a legal precedent would be very bad for them and spoil all their "fun" [and make their badges and guns much less intimidating]. But ATFE has almost "succeeded." They have frightened every other manufacturer into bowing down before their claimed (mis)"interpretation." I wonder why other manufactures are so afraid of the ATFE since "renegade" Jerry has for years refused to bow down and is not in jail. In actual practice it appears the ATFE's dog's bark is much worse than its bite. Does anyone have any evidence of the ATFE sucessfully (or even trying to)prosecuting someone for manufacturing rocket motors without a LEMP, etc? Larry Lobdell, Jr. "Just the facts, please. Just the facts." [Who said that?]

Ah yes, what do we believe about Jerry? If I've been reading my Jerry speak correctely, He DOES have a LEMP. He also has a Type IV magazine. He goes on to say "it's not for rocket motors though". It's kinda like he's thumbing his nose at a tiger....while it's behind the cage bars.

steve

Jerry, Do you have a exemption for using Black Powder with my electronic ejection charges?

With out that you would still need a LEUP....

if you use a scale replica of an antique canon for an ejection canister, it will be exempt

;)

- iz

Bullpup wrote:

Notice that 29 Part 555.141 states "Except for the provisions of §§555.180 and 555.181, this part does not apply to:"

Therefore, if rocket motors are PADs, then ALL of part 555 does not apply, including the requirement to obtain a LEMP.

As such, none of the rocket motor manufacturers need an LEMP.

Bob

I am your GOD.

Of course.

Chapter 40. -IMPORTATION, MANUFACTURE9 DISTRIBUTION AND

STORAGE OF EXPLOSIVE MATERIALS

Editor's Note

The sections of law set out herein were newly added by Public Law

91-452, Title XI, §1102(a), Oct. 15, 1970, 84 Stat. 952-959, and remain unchanged unless otherwise footnoted. § 845. Exceptions; relief from disabilities

(a)

(5) commercially manufactured black powder in quantities not to exceed fifty pounds, percussion caps, safety and pyrotechnic fuses, quills, quick and slow matches, and friction primers, intended to be used solely for sporting, recreational, **OR** cultural purposes [, or] in antique firearms as defined in section 921(a)(16) of title 18 of the United States Code, or in antique devices as **exempted** from the term "destructive device" in section 921 (a)(4) of title 18 of the United States Code; and

I shall be your god hereinafter.

Mere humble Jerry