WW-II rocket motor on E-bay - opinions ?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rocket-Engine-German-Walter-ME-163b-Messerschmitt-Komet_W0QQitemZ6551110440QQcategoryZ4078QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Anybody think this can actually be lit off ?
that is - without
(a). any tech manual documentation (b). any kind of hazmat permits (presuming it uses some toxic chemicals for fuel). (c). blowing oneself up

BeepBeep wrote:
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How to put this...if I had the tech manual, the fuel and oxidizer, the permits and immortality, I still wouldn't attempt to fire it up. Too many ways to have more fun than that with propellant systems these days.

The engine uses T-stoff or C-Stoff IIRC a forerunner of todays Hydrazine was what C-Stoff was, and T-Stoff was mainly Hydrogen Peroxide.......Supposedly it could turn your flesh to jello if it got on you and it was known to spontaneously ignite if spilled on organic materials like cotton or wood etc. T-Stoff was used in early models of the engine, and C-Stoff in later models.......exhaust approx 1800 deg with the C and 600 with the T Might be neat to have, but not something I would want to fool with. Should not be any permits needed for any of the chemicals used to make the "(X)"-Stoff
On Sun, 07 Aug 2005 22:40:02 GMT, "St. John Smythe"
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=============================================Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked! "The original frugal ponder" ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

In my much younger days I knew the Merrerschmidt test pilot, Karl Bauer. I was very young then but I do remember hearing him give a series of lectures at this aviation historical group my dad belong to, about his flying experiences during WWII. Each week a different person gave his experiences during aviations greatest and worst moments.
Karl told us that one of his friends was killed by the Komet when it crashed on landing. The plane flipped over and the fuel cell broken open. By the time the ground crew/medics arrive the pilot had the back of his head dissolved by the fuel. Dad and I talked about this years later and it seems Karl refused to fly the Komet. Probably the only Me design he didn't fly.
Point of interest, Dad told me that the Gigant flying transport originally was a glider. But after a very nasty crash in which over 100+ paras were killed and four aircraft crashed it was converted to engines. Probably was that the pilot didn't have a direct linkage to the engine. It seems in the wings were the flight engineers and the pilot spoke into speaking tubes giving orders about power settings. This was almost as dangerous as the glider idea and Karl complained bitterly. Finally the pilot had some direct power control on the engines.
Really interesting man, saddly he died when a nurse screwed up a put an air bubble into his vein. The bubble hit his heart and that was it. I remember dad crying when he heard the news. Karl was very respected by the historical community.

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One story mentioned a lot is of a pilot less (or more?) lucky - by the time the medics arrived only the bones were left.
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The glider was the Me321, the version with engines the Me323. Problem with the glider was that it needed 3 Ju88 to tow it - as an alternative the He111Z was developed, which was 2 He111 joined by a wing element with a 5th engine on it.
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ISTR that the Dornier Do-X had a similar arrangement, correct?
Juergen Nieveler

St> BeepBeep wrote: >> Anybody think this can actually be lit off ? >> >> that is - without >> >> (a). any tech manual documentation (b). any kind of hazmat >> permits (presuming it uses some toxic chemicals for fuel). >> (c). blowing oneself up
St> How to put this...if I had the tech manual, the fuel and St> oxidizer, the permits and immortality, I still wouldn't St> attempt to fire it up. Too many ways to have more fun than St> that with propellant systems these days.
I keep remembering reading about the Mitsubishi Shusui rocket fighter development (maybe the Gakken series book), and how the engine was really really shaky, with poor materials, lack of experience of the engineers, and so forth. Not to mention the inherent dangers of rockets and explosive fuels. When testing the motor, all the staff would get into a slit trench and simply stay there until the engine burned its fuel out, not daring to stick their heads up (from previous experience). One new chap decided it was a good idea to have a look see, and put up his head. One of the other lads shouted to him to get down, but it was too late. The engine exploded and the blast simply tore his head off his shoulders.

Sure!
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Hydrazine and methanol, according to Wikipedia. The methanol is no problem; the hydrazine is considered a hazardoussubstance and probably regulated to some extent. (VERY hazardous - i've read reports of what happened in WWII when pilots were splashed with the stuff).
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Ah, there's the rub. These blew up pretty regularly 60 years ago when they were new. I don't even want to be in the same COUNTY with you when you try this one...

I have had hydrazine on me already and it amaounted to nithing more than having water splashed on you. I hgot dosed with it my a dumb a$$ed fuel troop when he was working on a EPU on an F-16C, and two others also got it all over them..Of course the place went into a panic, they made us strip down on the flight line, butt nekid, the fire department came and hosed us down and sprayed us with chlorox, carried us wrapped up in sheets to the base hospital, where they washed us and washed us some more and took blood tests, and continued to take blood tests for over 6 months just about every week or two.......It did not burn or sting or anything else it was like water....
For hydrazine and also the fuels the Komet used it has to pass over a catylyst bed which caused it to ignite or actually decompose, and in the decomposing process it created heat and flame
wrote:
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=============================================Put some color in your cheeks...garden naked! "The original frugal ponder" ~~~~ }<((((o> ~~~~~~ }<{{{{o> ~~~~~~~ }<(((((o>

wrote:
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Thats only the fuel or C-stoff which was 57% Methanol, 30% hydrazine hydrate and 13% water. The killer was the oxidiser, t-stoff which was 80% concentrated hydrogen peroxide. This compound causes spontaneous combustion when in contact with almost any fuel, including human flesh.
Keith
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A catalyst, usually either calcium permamgante or potassium permanganate.
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C-stoff, early engines used to Z-stoff to make the T-stoff dissassociate into steam and O2. This was the so called 'cold' engine. The same reaction was used to drive the turbine fuel pump for the V-2 and the Walter turbines in the experimental type XXVI U-Boats
Two of these were briefly used as test craft by the RN post war and were nicknamed HMS Exploder and HMS Excruciator by their crews !
Keith
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A note of personal experience. As a young high school student with an active interest in rockets and pyrotechnics, I fabricated a "cold" rocket engine inspired by the Walter designs. The motor used 30% Hydrogen peroxide (strongest stuff my school's chem lab had) and a catalyst composed of manganese dioxide ( I think, it was pulled out of old non-alkaline D cell batteries). Didn't make much thrust but it generated a lot of impressive steam and noise. The peroxide was nasty stuff. Even at 30% concentration, if you got any on your skin, it would be bleached white instantly and then begin to slough off.
I can remember urging my physics teacher to try to get some higher concentration of peroxide to improve the performance. Sometimes I wonder how I lived through my teens.
Mark

a - no b - The origial fuels were, IIRC, hypergolic and ignited on contact. I think tit was a hydrazine and alcohol mix. I also rember reading that you almost had to wear a space suit to fuel the beast.. c - no (see b)
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http://cgi.ebay.com/Rocket-Engine-German-Walter-ME-163b-Messerschmitt-Komet_W0QQitemZ6551110440QQcategoryZ4078QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:05:55 -0400, "BeepBeep"
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I was lucky enough to get a good tour of the Garber Facility back in the late '80s. One of the things they emphasized was that "museum quality" and "airworthy" were two, very different things.
This would be a cool conversation piece. Or an instrument of self-immolation. Owne'rs choice, I guess.
Bill Kambic

snipped-for-privacy@vic.com wrote:
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Mount it to the back of a car, get some fuel for it, make sure there's people with cameras about, and you'll be a living legend in DAFUL :-)
Juergen Nieveler

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No, you'd be a DEAD "legend". You'd probably qualify for a "Darwin Award" nomination.

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Any you would probably end up paying more for phone service too! (Apologies to Vonage)
JD

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http://cgi.ebay.com/Rocket-Engine-German-Walter-ME-163b-Messerschmitt-Komet_W0QQitemZ6551110440QQcategoryZ4078QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Oh yes indeedy.
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The Me-163 killed far more of its own pilots than it did the enemy and many died horribly in fuel accidents and when their rocket motors exploded.
There are plenty of relatively safe modern rocket motors available, running a 60 year old Walter rocket is just an expensive way of committing suicide.
Keith
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Do yourself a favor and first read the history of the ME-163, especially about pilots who were burned to death by the rocket motor's fuel!
end
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I think "burned" is the wrong word. More like "dissolved", I'm afraid...
Juergen Nieveler

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 18:05:55 -0400, "BeepBeep"
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Safer to buy a replica: http://www.xcor.com/me163.html