OT: Obsolete WWII aircraft

"Sold as military surplus or scraps."

I recall reading somewhere that shortly after the war Mustangs were available for civilian purchase CHEAP (minus the armaments, of course.) The logic follows that most of the "excess" military equipments were sold.

: Were there US squadrons of obsolete a/c throughout the war?

oops. I really meant to say how were the remaining planes used throughout the war, not what happened after the war....

Craig

Hello Craig:

a lot of the Airacobras were sold off to Russia, some of them were used as trainers in the USA.

a lot of the planes were sold off to the allies, some went to the USA for trainers, and a lot of them were mothballed and latyer scrapped, there have been a few books about this.

I hope this helps

take care and happy modeling

George

Ah, a real can of worms.

Many of the undesirable or redundant aircraft (e.g. Martin B-26, Boeing B-17, Consolidated B-24, Douglas A-20, etc.) and the previously obsolete or marginal fighters (e.g. P-38, P-39, P-40) all went to scrap as fast as they could be smelted, or in some cases were either crushed where they sat or were dumped off ships on their way home.

Some -- to the USAAF's disgrace -- were dumped as fast as possible as they performed missions that were no longer desirable. The elimination of the P-47 fleet as fast as could be managed is one of the disgraces that can be laid at the feet of the USAF and one can only wonder what it could have done in Korea.

Many Mustangs, Corsairs, Invaders and other 1945-vintage "top line" aircraft were either sent out to places like Davis-Monthan or kept at USAFR bases.

Thousands of trainers were either scrapped (PT-17, BT-13, etc.) or sold off (AT-6/SNJ, AT-9, C-45, etc.) as were redundant C-47s returned to civilian service as DC-3s or for commerical cargo routes.

Some were sold to allies or provided by MAP under the Marshall Plan.

Naval aircraft do not seem to have undergone quite the same bashing, and many of them either went into crates or USNR/USMCR bases around the country. Obsolete ones like the F4F and the beloved SBD were scrapped.

The ones left today show pretty much which ones were purged and which ones were sent abroad, as the latter seem to provide most of the "warbirds" at air shows and in private museums.

Cookie Sewell AMPS

Didn't many planes also end up in the air forces of some smaller nations? I keep seeing articles in Fly Past etc where some WWII aircraft is purchased for restoration and is noted as ex-"this or that countries" fighter.

They'd make great operational trainers if they weren't too war-weary. AFAIK, P-40s and Wildcats served right up to the end of the war. Other types would be squadron hacks or target tugs, maybe instructional airframes.

Bill Banaszak, MFE

The USAF needed to standardize on one or the other for purely economic reasons. It's unfair to expect it to have foreseen the need for ground attack aircraft that materialized during the Korean war.

Some of our "outdated" aircraft did quite well in other hands during the war.

The P-39 and P-63 saw successful use in Soviet hands. The much malaigned Buffalo was deadly in the hands of experienced Finnish pilots.

Many of the most recent rebuilds from wrecks come from Russia and surrounding areas, especially P-40B/C Tomahawks and P-39s.

Tom

If you check the orders of 'battle' for South and Central American Air forces, you'll find a lot of P-47s, P-51s, B-25s, A-26s, C-46s, C-47s, PT-17s, BT-13s, C-45s/AT-11s and AT-6s went south in the ten years after the war. Lesser numbers of F6F, F4U, P-63, P-38, OS2U and PBY went south too. The French used P-39s, P-63s, F6Fs and F4Us/AUs in Viet Nam. Bolivia and Israel had a few B-17s. India had B-24s. The Phillipines got P-51s. China got some too. The Italian Co-Belligerents were using P-39s at the end of the war, and might have kept them for a while; the French did the same with P-38s. About the only country to use P-40s for any length of time after the war was Brazil, but they got theirs long before the war ended. Oddly enough, P-40s are among the more common warbirds, even though they didn't see significant postwar service anywhere.

Lots of surplus-to-requirements aircraft were burned, dumped off the fantail of carriers, stripped and scrapped, or simply abandoned. Anything that was remotely viable in the commercial sense (C-47, C-46, C-45, B-17, B-25, A-20, B-26, B-23, most trainers, and surprisingly enough, quite a few P-40 and P-51) was made available for sale by the RFC, but some types were simply not released, like the B-32. Someone did try to buy one of those for a polar overflight, but the deal collapsed. AT-9s were also sequestered for some reason. OTOH, someone managed to buy the last surviving P-64 and preserve it, and a few O-47s and O-52s made onto the civilian side.

Some of these old birds lingered for a long time. I remember being driven by a scrap yard which was probably adjunct to Moffett Field back about 1962, when we were going to buy my first 3-speed bicycle. The one-acre lot had a pile of miscellaneous equipment in it; front and center was a faded-to-very-light-gray single engined monoplane with a long glasshouse--I wish I could recall clearly what it was, but the only likely alternatives were a TBD, an SB2U or an SNV. Even back then, I would have recognized a TBF or SBD or AT-6. I want to say it was a TBD, but most likely it was an SNV (Vultee Vibrator, naval version). Within the year, the lot was cleared.

Mark Schynert

Don't forget that a relatively small number were used as RC targets and ground-based "Target objects" during A-bomb testing in the '50s. Also, IIRC, they were used as targets for testing conventional ordnance.

Most were grounded and scrapped. Recycled into beer cans and mobile homes and such. Some were sent to the fire pit to train crash rescue crews, or set out on gunnery ranges for artillery target practice. Others wound up under A-Bomb tests.

When a combat type became obsolete on the front line they usually sent it back Stateside to be used as an advanced trainer. Many Tomahawks, Airacobras, Wildcats, B-10s, B-18s and the like saw use in training squadrons. Chuck Yeager flew an Airacobra while training to fly Mustangs.

Wildcats (especially the GM-built versions) continued to be used on the front-line in the Atlantic, as they could operate off the CVE carriers better than the Hellcat or Corsair could. Since their job was to scout for U-Boats, and they rarely came into contact with enemy fighters, they were still very useful in this role.

Often an obsolescent type would be kept as a "squadron hack"--for flying non-combat missions like mail courier flights. One famous Corsair, built from spare parts of wrecked planes and painted silver, was used by a Marine Corps service squadron as a courier plane towards the end of the Pacific War.

Some planes were sold to Allies but this wasn't as common. The British sold a squadron of Hurricanes to the Irish Republic after the Battle of Britain.

Some obsolete planes would see postwar service in National Guard and Reserve squadrons. The last P-47 Thunderbolts in American use were all in National Guard units, for example.

Stephen "FPilot" Bierce/IPMS #35922 {Sig Quotes Removed on Request}

Ever see ' The Best Years of Our Lives?' Acres of P-39's and P-63's lined up for the smelter.

During the war, some of those models were used in second-line US service, or sold to allies.

Scott G. Welch

Not much demand after the war for single person war planes with no cargo capacity, high maintenance, and a vicious thurst for fuel.

There are pics of a field of P-40s, engines removed, tails in the air, standing on their noses next to others like blades of grass that survived until the 1960s then was scrapped. Some were sent to Canada and after the war farmers bought them for the fuel in the tanks and whatever materials and parts they could invent a use for. Occasionally they are still found there in sheds or buried.

Warbird restorations are at all time high, with many of the recent warbird finds coming from the former soviet union. We're even seeing a lot of Axis planes getting restored. The route of every plane that crashed has been plotted and investigated using the latest equipment. There are websites devoted to current news in the area, as well as magazines such as Warbird. My library has a book written by one of the more successful warbird hunters.

This month they were suppose to pull the remains of the only known surviving orginal AVG P-40 from a river or lake in CHina.

Tom

A lot of older planes considered obsolete in one theatre of war, was used elswhere with succes, i.e. the P-40 was not well liked in the RAF against the Germans in the channel area, but it aquitted it self well in the dessert and in Russia. Same goes for the Aircobra, at the eastern front. Both also did resonably in the Pacific. They shared a common engine fit for low level use. So for quite a while they were used in for that, or as advanced trainers in home areas. After the war plenty of P-38, P-39 and P-40 were scrapped (Others also). A lot of the brittish lend lease planes were put onbord carriers and actually dumped at sea Corsairs, Hellcats and Avengers at least. Rumor also has that plenty of planes around the world were actually burried, some even still in shipping crates. Some were sold to countries that had no airforce left after the war, Denmarh, Sweden, Belgium, Norway and Ireland all bought Spitfires after the war, among other types. Many ended up in South American airforces, where many of todays warbirds come from. Many were auctioned off in large portions to scrappers and other interested parties. Most of the ex. German planes were smashed to pieces and scrapped, for many different reasons, fealings not the least of them, but also if they existed they would need factories to support them, and the German arms factories would be keept operating. That's one reason that many Bf/Me 109 versions after the war used other engines - supply and support. Though it may not be the most important reason, one can't help thinking that the allied cleared away the remaining luftwaffe planes in order to sell their own surplus. Actually France used captured German planes in Europe (Fw 190 and Ju 88 Fi

My Grandfather worked for Reynolds Aluminum during the war and well afterwards. I've seen pictures he had of brand new B-24s, 17s and later 29s that were sold as scrap. The Air Force would fly them in and turn them over to Reynolds were they were towed to special hangers and cut up. These weren't ' war weary' birds but flown right from the factory to the scrap pile. In the back ground of one there were several bright and shiny P-38s awaiting the same fate. I know its a shame to think of it now, but then, we just had way too damn many of them and a population hungry for cars, refrigerators and folding aluminum lawn chairs. Mike IPMS

whats a lawn chair?

Its a light weight folding chair used in the summer time on the lawn or the patio. Some folks call them patio chairs as well. It usually has vinyl webbing as back and seat supports. Some older ones had canvas. It replaced the steel and cast iron versions from the 20s and 30s. They are very popular here in North America. Mike IPMS

i think its what we have and we call them deck chairs.