It real easy for the arm chair strategists, and lawyers to spend all the time in the world they need to prove their case and or point. It's a whole 'nother matter when you are in a dangerous environment a long way from home.
Beating a dead horse will not bring it back to life...................
snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com (Thelasian) rambled on and on with..........
(aw, hell, I couldn't subject everyone to that litany a second time; rest snipped)
Zzzzzzzzzzzz.
-- -- " In walks the village idiot and his face is all aglow; he's been up all night listening to Mohammad's radio" W. Zevon
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"Thelasian" wrote >
Have you ever been in combat? Have you ever experienced the "fog of war" as it's called. Of course you haven't or you wouldn't be talking out your ass like you are. I'm sure the Iraninas who put the bomb under the Captain's wife's mini-van, seriously injuring her mistook must have had the same problem, right?
-- -- " In walks the village idiot and his face is all aglow; he's been up all night listening to Mohammad's radio" W. Zevon
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That's just a pathetic excuse. The US Navy is more professional than that, one would hope.
The Captain of the USS VIncennes was in a "dangerous environment" because he himself illegally entered into Iranian waters.
Being in a "dangerous environment" is not an excuse to kill 290 people and then lie about it.
That's a BS excuse. One would hope that the US Navy was professional enough to be able to deal with the so-called 'fog of war' without downing civilian airliners.
The 'fog of war' did not force the Captian of the USS VIncennes to violate his own ROE and illegally enter into Iranian waters. Nor is that any reason for the US Navy to have lied about the location of the Vincennes for 4 years.
Isn't it ironic that you're equating the actions of the USS VIncennes with an alleged terrorist act? In fact there was no "iranian" who placed a bomb under her van. According to the last news report, the only suspect for that incident was an acquiantance of their family who held some sort of personal grudge arising out of a divorce proceeding.
PROOF:
AUTHOR: Ostrow, Ronald J; Serrano, Richard A; Abrahamson, Alan TITLE: Inquiry Raises Grudge Motive in Rogers Case SOURCE: Los Angeles Times SEC,PG:COL: I, 1:2 DATE: Oct 1, 1989
ABSTRACT: Federal investigators probing the Mar 1988 bombing of a van driven by Sharon Rogers, the wife of the skipper of the USS Vincennes, began investigating an American believed to have a personal grudge against the captain.
---------------------- AUTHOR: Abrahamson, Alan; Ostrow, Ronald J; Serrano, Richard A TITLE: Car Bombing Investigation Shelved SOURCE: Los Angeles Times DATE: Mar 7, 1991 ABSTRACT: Federal and San Diego investigators ended their analysis of the bombing of a vehicle owned by Navy Captain Will Rogers III, who previously ordered the shooting of a civilian Iranian aircraft, when they were unable to develop any solid leads. The possibility of terrorism has been ruled out.
----------------------------------------- NEWSABS NO: 01786908 AUTHOR: Walte, Juan TITLE: Report: Details of Airliner Downing Covered Up SOURCE: USA Today SEC,PG:COL: A, 4:2 DATE: Jul 1, 1992 ABSTRACT: The Reagan administration covered up key aspects of an incident on Jul 3, 1988 in which the USS Vincennes, on patrol near the entrance to the Persian Gulf, shot down a commercial Iranian airliner mistaking it for an attacking aircraft, according to an ABC News' "Nightline"-Newsweek magazine investigation. ARTICLE TYPE: News ARTICLE LENG: Medium (6-18 col inches) DESCRIPTORS: Covert operations; Military engagements; Investigations NAMED PEOPLE: Reagan, Ronald Wilson GEOG NAMES: Iran; United States; US AVAILABILITY: UMIACH; 60430.00 JOURNAL CODE: US JOURNAL ISSN: 0734-7456 _______________________________________________________________
NEWSABS NO: 00195305 TITLE: Vincennes Skipper Ends 2-Year Command SOURCE: Washington Times SEC,PG:COL: A, 5:2 DATE: May 29, 1989 ABSTRACT: Captian Will C. Rogers III has ended his two-year command of the USS Vincennes without apology for the cruiser's mistaken destruction of an Iranian airliner. Navy Captain Robert B. Lynch took his place. ARTICLE TYPE: News ARTICLE LENG: Medium (6-18 col inches) DESCRIPTORS: Armed forces; Resignations NAMED PEOPLE: Rogers, Will III; Lynch, Robert B COMPANIES: Navy-US AVAILABILITY: UMIACH; 60428.00 JOURNAL CODE: WT JOURNAL ISSN: 0732-8494
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NEWSABS NO: 00320667 TITLE: The Vincennes Incident SOURCE: Boston Globe SEC,PG:COL: 22:1 DATE: Sep 16, 1989 ABSTRACT: An editorial states that naval Commander David Carlson, who has enlarged the understanding of the shoot-down of an Iranian airliner in 1988 by the cruiser USS Vincennes, sets an example of candor that other officers troubled by incomplete official stories should emulate. ARTICLE TYPE: Editorial ARTICLE LENG: Medium (6-18 col inches) DESCRIPTORS: Editorials; Armed forces; Aircraft accidents & safety NAMED PEOPLE: Carlson, David COMPANIES: Navy-US AVAILABILITY: UMIACH; 60494.00 JOURNAL CODE: BG JOURNAL ISSN: 0743-1791
No, actually it's not BS. I suppose you must have been there then since you knoew so much and speak so authoritatively about it.
From all the crap you've posted one might get the idea you're trying to represent the Iranian families in a lawsuit and are engaging in a little seeding the field.
-- -- " In walks the village idiot and his face is all aglow; he's been up all night listening to Mohammad's radio" W. Zevon
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No, the really pathetic thing here is that you don't have the balls ot use your real name and address. And don't try the limpdick excuse of SPAM prevention, that's evn more pathetic.
Again you sure seem to contend that the captain of the Vincennes knowingly and deliberately shot down the airliner. That was not the case and you have no corroborating evidence to the contrary. Screw ups and situations were bad decisions (mostly known in hindsight by the monday morning QB's such as yourself) do occur. We have shot down our own planes and even bombed and shelled our own troops. I guess every one who pulled the trigger in these cases is also a Homicidal maniac.
The Navy and the military is quite professional but these events do and have occurred in the past and likely will in the future unless you have a fool proof way to prevent these.
Well, do you?? If so please call the Pentagon and relay your vast wealth of military expertise. In over 20 years in the Navy I have seen occassions where the wrong target was engaged. You can practice as often as you want but all it takes is a innocent error to cascade into a tragedy. Besides what little you seem to have read what is your level of expertise in the application of military power and the activation and use of modern weapon systems? I had 20 years 2 weeks and 4 days.
I served 11.5 years at sea on missile shooting destroyers and frigates. I also had another 6.5 as a support technician (Chief Electronics Technician) who made "house calls" on many of the systems you seem to have little knowledge of. My backgound was in Satellite Navigation, Radar Display sytems, IFF from older MkIX to latest Aegis, Secure Voice Crypto, and various air and surface search radars.
So thats who I am. Care to show me your credentials that give you some relevance?
Dave Henk Chief Petty Officer, retired
Some of those QB were veterans in the Gulf, who tried to warn the Vincennes--who were rebuffed--who called their attitude Aegis Arrogance. Soon they started calling the Vincennes "RoboCruiser".
It has become clear to me that this individual, hiding behind the nom de' plume of Thelasian, seems incapable of carrying his discussion any further than his original rather weakly stated assertions. He had offered little evidence beyond his original hearsay "evidence," had is only able to add a couple bits of profanity in here and there.
I'm of the opinion he's merely a hysterical buffoon or a pathetic troll and, one way or the other, I've wasted all the time with him that I care to.
-- -- " In walks the village idiot and his face is all aglow; he's been up all night listening to Mohammad's radio" W. Zevon
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This Thelasian person is just a troll desperately seeking attention. He has no data to add beyond repeating and rewording his original assertions, sometimes emphasized with profanity. I recommend not feeding him any further.
-- -- " In walks the village idiot and his face is all aglow; he's been up all night listening to Mohammad's radio" W. Zevon
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No one can take issue with your credentials on this issue, Dave; you know what you're talking about.
I have seriously doubt in his claim that he is a lawyer. It is certainly clear to me that he has absolutely no experience with, or even exposure to, the type of situation that the Vincennes was in at the time; international and immediate situational tensions, need for split-second decisions based on best-available but often incomplete information, and, yes, even the "fog-of-war" that any who have experienced it know enter into crisis-type situations.
He has absolutely no frame of reference and, therefore, no credibility. I'd recommend ignoring any further hysterical outbursts from him.
-- -- " In walks the village idiot and his face is all aglow; he's been up all night listening to Mohammad's radio" W. Zevon
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You are so far beyond ignorant, you make small canine pets look educated.
Again, you seem to miss these points:
1- Whether he shot down the plain "knowingly" or "deliberately" is irrelevant under international law, that imposes a standard of strict liability. Putting aside international law, there are plenty of very very serious crimes that don't require you to have acted "intentionally" or "knowingly" at all, like the crime of reckless HOMOCIDE. 2- there is in fact evidence that he knowingly and deliberately did shoot the plane down - such as the two warnings provided to him by his crew that his targets was possibly COMAIR, or the fact that he was under a well-known civilian flight path etc. 3- the determination of what he knew or intended, even if relevant questions, should have been determined ACCORDING TO THE LAW by a jury, not by YOU. 4- Phrases like "Bad decisions" and "Screw ups" are no excuses for the commander of a naval missile frigate to charge illegally into another countries waters and blow up a civilian airliner. 5- The US Navy LIED ABOUT THE POSITION OF THE VINCENNES FOR 4 YEARS. Do you get that?
Ah, yes, the old "Oops, Oh heck, shit happens" justification for shooting down civilian airliners. Gotcha.
The "cascade of errors" originated with the INTENTIONAL ILLEGAL entrance into the waters of another nation with guns ablaze.
And before you pull ranks with your "you don't know about the military, we shoot down civilian airliners all the time" BS, take a gander at what Capt. Carlson of the USS Sides had to say.
And incidentally, would you have been so forgiving if, say, and Iranian missile cruiser had crossed into US waters and shot down a Boeing as it was taking off from JFK airport?
I don't give a shit if you can pull a fairy out of your ass. There is NO EXCUSE for shooting down civilian airliners and then lying about it.
Oh fer chrissakes. Is it REALLY that hard to accept the realities? Look, the facts ARE NOT CONTESTED anymore: The VIncennes was inside Iranian waters. The Vincennes shot down a civilian airliner. The airliner was NOT a diving F-14 or anything else. It was doing everyhting it was supposed to be doing. The USN did NOT tell the world about the location of the Vincennes for 4 years. No other ship in the area "mistook" the airliner for an F-14. The Vincennes screwed up, but that doesn't mean that a crime wasn't committed. A drunk driver who kills a family also doesn't "intend" to kill them, or "mean" to run them over but he's still responsible according to the law. You don't have to "mean to" kill people to be legally liable. I don't know what about all of this is so hard for you to grasp.
And BTW - there is no lawsuit. The US courts do not have jurisdiction. Iran and the US settled the matter eventually. But that still doesn't resolve the FACT that the US Navy covered up the fact for 4 years and blamed the victims. That's the ugly truth. Face up to it.
Why is this crap on a modelling newsgroup? Thelasian should try to get a life.
I was going to go into detail further, but when I read this, I just stopped.
Where is your concern about the ethnic cleansing and genocide in the Balkans ? Or the 10,000 + dead elderly french civilians because their own families were too incompetent to take care of them properly ? Or the slaughters in Africa because the un and europeans are too corrupt, and cowardly to do anything but engage in corrupt activities, and get their own people killed.
Where is the OUTRAGE at the Oil For Food Program disaster ? The europeans get wealthy at the expense of the average Iraqi !!!!!!!!
Why does this one issue alone not bother you ????
I your anti American bias/hatred so vast that you see nothing else ?
OR....is it the sinister calculating words of the likes of the people who stole all that $$$ from the oil for food program, and this is merely an extension of the same morals, ideals and thought of those people who ran the program, and stole billions of dollars ??
Where is your concern about all the millions and millions of people the eurpeans have killed over the years, (the 40's alone, 1800's if you want a bigger count) More than the USA ever has !! Do you even care about them ??
Why are you not writing about this ??
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