Quick question

Indeed it was - the alternative was getting ganged-up by a few British warships who were patiently waiting...

No, she was indeed a 'pocket battleship' of the German Navy. While smaller than the Bismarck, she could have caused serious problems for Allied shipping in the Atlantic. She *may* be able to be compared to an 'Alaska' class cruiser size- and armament-wise but she was classed as a battleship. I'm sure other, more knowledgeable than me, can offer more info...

Frank Kranick

Hi Frank, thanks for reply, was asking as in another NG someone mentioned that there's plans to bring her up (?!) and quoted battleship.

Be well.

Kitt

No, she was indeed a 'pocket battleship' of the German Navy. While smaller than the Bismarck, she could have caused serious problems for Allied shipping in the Atlantic. She *may* be able to be compared to an 'Alaska' class cruiser size- and armament-wise but she was classed as a battleship. I'm sure other, more knowledgeable than me, can offer more info...

Frank Kranick

Kitt asks:

The Graf Spee and her sisters (Deutschland and Scheer) were originally classified as "panzerschiffe" ("armoured ships") called "pocket battleships" for a few years, then later reclassified as heavy cruisers. Conway's describes them as "heavily armed, thinly protected long range merchant raiders".

For all practical purposes, they were heavy cruisers. The "pocket battleship" label was partially a dodge to tiptoe around the Versailles Treaty restrictions on German shipbuilding, and partially a morale booster/propaganda tool. The Deutschland class had the same type of guns (but fewer of them) as the Scharnhorst class battlecruisers, but thinner armour than the Hipper class cruisers.

DLF

At the time, it was commonly referred to as a "pocket battleship" in a somewhat derogatory way. Germany called the class 'Panzerschiffe' (armored ships) & were reclassified as heavy cruisers in1940. They were the size of large cruisers, but carried larger guns than any other cruiser (280mm/11"), were lightly armored, & faster than any battleship of the day. Sisters included Deutschland (renamed Lutzow) & Adm. Scheer. They definitely outclassed any destroyer or corvette of their era.

JM

Oh Boy! Warship classifications are a very deep swamp, ol Son! That 1921 Washington Naval Conference/Treaty tried to put some order in things but Gentleman's Agreement Arms Treaties are fraught with opportunities for fudging, like any other contract. Essentially, the three "Deutschland" class ships were designed to fulfill the roll of long range commerce killers. They were a combination of features designed to create a ship which could outrun any thing they didn't outgun. They were probably closer to the old "Armored Cruiser" concept than anything else. The German classification was, very simply, "armored ship". The term "Pocket Battle Ship" was some newspaper reporters wet dream. They were not really designed to "stand in line of battle" to use the old term, their function was to seek out the enemy's merchant traffic and sink or capture. They had the gun power to take on the lighter cruiser type ships built by their potential enemies if necessary. However, avoiding such combat was their wisest choice, since damage far from home would be difficult to repair, as Graf Spee showed. What were they they equivalent of, in terms of the World War II warships? They would be the equivalent of a very heavily armed Heavy Cruiser.

Bill Shuey

No. Not a battleship. I can't think of many (actually any) battleships of the period or before that had weaker armament than the Graf Spee and her two sisters. The phrase "pocket battleship" was often bandied about in regards to the three ships of the class. I suspect that had more to with politics than naval doctrine. I think the best peg hole the Graf Spee could hope to be pounded into might be as a light battlecruiser or large cruiser class comparable to the later US Alaska CB design. I'd take the Alaska in that fight, by the way. Otherwise, they're basically heavy cruisers with heavier than usual main armament.

There certainly is no way to categorize the Graf Spee as a corvette or destroyer. Not just in size, but more importantly, the Graf Spee was not suited for most of the types of mission in which one would employ a destroyer, escort or patrol boat.

WmB

To reply, get the HECK out of there snipped-for-privacy@earthlink.net

Please check.

Kitt

you need to look at some pictures and stats.

Indeed gents, you've been most informative and I thank you all for the input.

I'll go back to the other NG and clarify the data.

Uh William ? Thanks for the "ol son" he he.

Be well.

Kitt

" you need to look at some pictures and stats."

Huh ?, thanks.

Where, pray tell ?

on your bathroom wall..where else ?

The Graf Spees are not easily classified in comparison with other contemporary combat vessels. Yes, they were eventually called heavy cruisers, but their guns were far more powerful than anything any other heavy cruiser of the period carried. They were too small and slow to be called battlecruisers, undergunned and undersize to be called battleships, and far too fast and large to be compared with coast defence ships like the Sverige. The closest analogue were some fast light battleships of the immediate predreadnought era, such as the Swiftsure or Regina Elena, or light battlecruisers like the Glorious and Courageous. The Graf Spees were built the way they were because of treaty restrictions, and as soon as treaties were no longer a control on construction, they were superseded by the Scharnhorst design. Incidentally, the Alaskas were far faster, larger, and had nine heavy guns instead of six; they were thus reasonably described as battlecruisers, though the USN classified them as heavy cruisers. They proved to be an expensive solution to a nonexistent problem, while the Graf Spees proved to be an extravagance that delivered little value after the opening months of the war. Presumably there was little point in attempting to build ships to a middle ground between the heavy cruiser and the true battleship.

Mark Schynert

Oh boy, another waste of oxygen.

Get a life son, better yet, take a walk 'till your hat floats.

And learn to spell ye half twit.

}&>( Kitt

"Waste is a terrible thing to mind" AJMB

on your bathroom wall..where else ?

In article , Mark Schynert writes

Wasn't this the Versailles Treaty? ISTR after WW1 the Germans were allowed to retain the surviving Predreadnoughts of the "Deutschland" class, and the Panzerschiffe were ostensibly permitted replacements for some of these.

Regards,

y algunos como usted terminan aplastados por un zapato

AJA !

JA JA JA JA !!!

Y encima hablás español ? Ahora si que te jodistes pendejo.

Cuál es tu intención de joder aquí ? Ganas de joder nada más ?

Andá buscá quién te revuelque mal parido.

Kitt

y algunos como usted terminan aplastados por un zapato

google.com

Hi Ron.

Not too sure size wise re destroyer vs. heavy cruiser, got me there pord. As far as I can recall Graf Spee,( no, I was NOT born yet) was not a large ship any means.

Be well.

Kitt