Re: B-17 Wing Covering Thickness

One major difference seems to be the change in public opinion to war.

War is no longer seen as a romantic adventure - the loss of civilians is another thing no longer tolerated (in general, anyway).

Hopefully this trend will continue. Put the pollies in the front line...

Don Watters

...and a bunch of Afgahns ran the Russians right back to Russia. Biggest problem with war is that the outcome isn't always predictable.

Bigger problem is, you never really know how many of somthing you need until you actually need them...and by then it's usually too late. Look at all the stories of not having enough up-armor kits in Iraq, for example...

A nation has to maintain a level of industrial infrastructure for strategic reasons alone. Not to mention that it's also good for keeping people employed in the meantime.

I could say the same about the state of agriculture...

Not really a good argument, seeing as the ability to shoot them up/down has increased in step with the ability to produce them.

Checked the news lately?..I think we could be there...

My mother said once that when she was growing up - her dad a WWI vet, her brothers off to WWII and Korea, and the sons of her friends off to Viet Nam, she thought that war was just the way the world ran. That there was ALWAYS going to be a war somewhere. I'm not sure she was wrong.

Not meaning to be rude, but the US didn't have the capability to build all of those weapons in 1939, either. It's just amazing what a good war will do for the economy...

RobG

I think you'll find that a lot of the success of any military venture relies on the calibre, training and morale of the men involved. I know that if I'd been an Afghani local, I'd be pretty pissed off about Boris and his mates walking around my place in their muddy boots - if I'd been Boris or one of his mates, I think I'd rather of been at home with Olga or Stoli. (c; And just how much 'real' training had the Imperial Guard had? Looking flash on the parade ground is one thing, actually doing your job is quite another... There are a million stories in the annals of warfare - these have been just two.

RobG

Interesting the way opinion has changed now that wives, daughters and sweethearts are getting injured regularly....

No such thing as innocent by-standers or innocent civillians, either. If you don't like your government's policy, get rid of them. If you don't make the effort to do so, don't cry when the top falls off your ice-cream cone.

But who will replace them in the rear echelon? Some more gutless wonders with promises bigger than their abilities?

RobG

just like orwell said.

It's not just a recent thing - and why not question it? Isn't that what you refer to below (getting rid of the government)?

Is that what happened to the Poles in 1939, or the Americans in 1941 (to name but a few). Just a little simplistic...

Whoever replaces them will think twice if their promises include going to war as an option (with them at the van).

Don Watters

true.

the guard earned a rep in the war with iraq. they did a lot of fighting. obviously not quite enough...

Rob Grinberg wrote:

Aaahh, memories! Party in Alexandria (Virginia) one evening back when Desert Storm was getting underway. The bombing campaign was on and everyone was waiting for the ground troops to take off at the time and the natural topic of conversation was the war. Remember, this was at the time when Ted Kennedy was running his mouth about 50,000 body bags, etc., etc. Anyway, one of the guests is a Pakistani Officer and people are asking him questions, occasionally intelligent, about what to expect. I could see he was uncomfortable about the subject, the Pakistani Embassy people had been told to avoid commenting on the Iraqi affair. Eventually he got cornered by one rather pushy woman who wanted to know what the Pakistani Army thought would happen. What about all these dire predictions that were floating around Washington. He stopped and thought for a moment, you could almost see the wheels going around in his mind and then he said; "Well, I'll tell you this. It is the opinion of my confreres and I that it will take the Americans and their British allies about one week to reduce the Iraqi Army to a bloody shambles"! The woman was obviously really into the Democrats line that we were heading for disaster and she asked "Well, what about this Republican Guard we have heard about? They have quite a reputation". He smiled, and like an adult explaining something to a persistent child replied "Ahh Madam, but what good is a reputation gained fighting untrained peasants?" I never forgot that. He was a sharp guy. And one week was a pretty good estimate. If some idiot in the administration hadn't fallen in love with the "100 hour war" idea and called "The Bear" off after 4 days, they probably would have done just that. As it was, we left the Republican Guard get out of Kuwait with enough capability to keep Saddam in power, so here we are 14 years later still involved there. Oh! If only they had finished it right back then.

Bill Shuey

Since the late 80's I'ce been saying we're in trouble industirally. If for no other reason than critically skilled workers getting laid off instead of middle management and the fact that they get tired of constant layoff cycles and either decide to work in some other field or retire. Aerospace and defense companies have not bothered to train enough younger workers in some skill sets to ensure a continued ability to produce some hardware.

No argument from me there - except when the second guessing comes from reservists (and some active I guess) who suddenly become miffed that the flip side of pocketing Uncle Sam's tuition money is risking life and limb in a war when called upon. I'm not talking about the guys who are on the deployment/redeployment merry-go-round with valid complaints of being over extended - I'm talking about the fresh boots that have yet to move who suddenly wish they had taken that second job at Home Depot. Not to mention those brave few that feel so strongly about it they've hired lawyers to keep them safe and sound. Of course while still collecting a check from Sammy.

If only it worked that way with everything - just think how we could rest the military and let an army of suits and briefcases (under their little k-pots) descend upon the Afghan mountains and Iraqi alleyways to serve their subpoenas and bring the banditos to heel.

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

And about being exposed behind that thin aluminum on the B-17 - no problem, just get behind some of that thick plexiglass. ;-)

WmB

Still a shame to lose it once you've got it.

Yeah - and it's not just defense and aerospace, but how about the steel industry in general? Welders, machinists, mechanics, garment and textile workers...skilled labor in general. Nobody seems to value those skill anymore..."work we no longer want to do"...man, that phrase pisses me off. We're all going to suffer in the long run, IMO.

And this isn't even getting into the scenario of needing integrated circuit chips in just about everything now a days and where are most of them being made??

Bill Shuey

i wish i had read about the i-i war. i've heard so many different opinions about the quality and training of both side that it's obvious i need good material. any books to check out?

Interestingly, I was just in San Antonio a couple weeks ago and went to the Alamo; I'd been there once before in 1979. After getting past all the "T" shirt sellers and other commercialism and getting down to what the siege of the Alamo was all about, it was amazing bit of soldiering on the part of the defenders (coupled with some ineptness on Santa Ana's part). Overall, I found it a thoroughly inspiring visit.