Ship Query

So, was the Scharnhorst a battleship or a battlecruiser? I've seen it referred to both ways which confuses a ship newbie like me.
Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
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wrote:

basically a heavy cruiser but called a panzershiff. i believe they had better armament than the jackie fisher stuff. as the hood sadly proved.
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snipped-for-privacy@some.domain ( snipped-for-privacy@some.domain) writes:

Oooo.... the Panzerschiffe were the Graf Spee, Deutschland/Luetzow, Admiral Scheer.
Scharnhorst and Gneisenau were larger and were referred to as battleships (Schlachtschiff) by the Germans. They did not have a terribly heavy armament for a battleship, although 11" projectiles were nothing to sniff at regardless. Essentially, given their protection, they were fast battleships.
In fact, IIRC, their original armament was to have been three triple 15" turrets, which were however not ready at the time.
--
Gernot Hassenpflug
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you're rigfht, i shouldn't read model boxes with an old guys memory. fast battleship sounds like a battelcruiser but the germans went their own way. thanks, g.
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Bang on the money, except the three twin 15" were to be an upgrade later in life (IIRC, when built the Germans were still stuck with the 11" because of Versailles). The 15" were to be part of a major rebuild with the secondary and tertiary armament being replaced by a uniform battery of 128mm guns and a new forward hull. This was started but not completed for Gneisenau. As a result her original armament was removed and sent for installation as coast defence mounts, leading to the survival of several items. The triple 11" turret "Cesar" is at Austratt in Norway, while two of the Twin 5.9 turrets are in Denmark. At least one of the 11" salvaged from Turret "Anton" was sent to the Low Countries (Holland or Belgium) along with one of the 15" Gneisenau was to have received, and I believe the gun tubes are still extant.
Cheers,

P.S., Hope things are improving after your recent problems.
Moramarth
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Thanks for the correction. Yes, I read similarly after that on the German Wikipedia page---apparently to avoid antagonizing the British. In fact, I had not known that S&G were in fact laid down as Panzerschiffe also, but when the French Dunquerque and Strassbourg arrived on the scene they were hastily rethrought, and then redesigned to much larger ships.

Very interesting!!

Things could be better, but apart from the new knowledge (as we suspected from the beginning) that plutonium has also leaked, nothing too serious LOL
Training continues!
--
Gernot Hassenpflug
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snipped-for-privacy@some.domain said the following on 28/03/2011 07:10:

Don't forget that in that case photographic evidence points to crews wedging doors open by stockpiling shells in front of them from one end of the ship to the other to increase rate of fire over the German ships of the time. Bad idea!
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some of the brit bc's at jutland had their flash dooers removed allowing flames to travel in the ammunition trunking tubes! k-effing-boom!
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The Kriegsmarine put Battleship Scharnhorst on the cap bands, so I guess they found it one.
Most Battleships had 12" and above, 14", 15" and 16" being the most common, but 18,"1 in Yamato class and even 20" in the WW I Courageous class. Basicly she had "only" 11" main cannons, but plans were said to be in hand for exchanging three tripple 11" for three doubble 15" turrets. Then there's the question of armour... Scharnhorst had a maximum of 13,5"(Military Book Club, Battleship Scharnhorst, page 12) Late US battleships (South Dakotas and Iowa had 12 1/4" - US Battleships in Action 2 page 21) so apparently she had the armour to be classified a battleship. And yes I know, armour thickness is not the only factor, but most I have read states that german steel was at least as good as any other - and probably better. Tough as Krupp Steel ring a bell anywhere?
Also considering her last action against a superior force, I belive she did pretty good against the british shells, but couldn't give as good as she could take.
Battleship in my book.
"Mad Modeller" skrev i meddelelsen
So, was the Scharnhorst a battleship or a battlecruiser? I've seen it referred to both ways which confuses a ship newbie like me.
Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
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as in adolph saying we must be as hard as krupp steel?
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On 3/28/2011 11:52 AM, Claus Gustafsen wrote:> The Kriegsmarine put Battleship Scharnhorst on the cap bands, so I guess

most common,

in hand

Action 2

I have

belive she did

Tamiya did a good job explaining the Battle of North Cape on the instruction sheet. I've seen it mentioned elsewhere but in a way that assumes the reader knows what happened. I didn't until just recently.
Bill Banaszak, MFE Sr.
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A tragedy---the war in general of course---that as the British had deceived the Germans extremely well about their radar capabilities, the KM turned off their radars as a matter of policy. This allowed British cruisers to get fairly close undetected and open fire first. The initial hits from the fantastic shooting (once again) of HMS Norfolk summarily destroyed the forward director and its radar, thereby dooming the ship (I am not certain if the aft director had a radar, and if/how this was subsequently used).
--
Gernot Hassenpflug
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