Weighted tyres

I don't think AMPS gets nearly the number of entries that the IPMS/USA nationals do. They don't have to deal with as many different kinds of models either.

If an OOB model also takes one of the 'place' awards that tells me something about the quality of the *other* entries...

Ouch...

"Al Superczynski" wrote

True on both counts. However, they have run 10 conventions without knowing beforehand exactly how many awards or how many types they'll need. Something IPMS claims to be simply, absolutely, utterly, impossible to do.

KL

Typically IPMS OOB allows alternate decals, tape seatbelts (or decal belts if the kit comes with them), antenna wires, etc. Basically if it's shown on the box art or instructions, it's allowed (rigged WWII biplanes are an example, most do not come with wire for the rigging).

That's fir sure, my cat's better than Merriman and you know what pompous little snots cats can be....

1/48 multi-engine jets usually has a good number of entries, yet I had the Tamiya Me-262 take OOB and second place in one contest. It wasn't so much lack of quality for other entires, it was the level of quality of the base kit to start and my normal skills. It would have placed second regardless... no way it would have beat the plane that placed first (I forget what it was but I remember it was gorgeously done).

"Al Superczynski" wrote

In individual classes, maybe so, but the results are definitely limited by a much more limited group of entries (*). But let's consider the "Best Of" award winners because they draw from all winning models of a given type and arguably are what the judges consider to be the "best" models; the type of models we should aspire to. The last IPMS Nats I went to was in VA Beach in

2002. Looking at the Journal contest results issues since then: 2002 Best Aircraft - a DH biplane with no panels, but with the guts out there naturally Best Military vehicle - a large scratchbuilt mortar and limber, with all the limber compartments open People's choice - a SB2U-1 with wings folded, panels open, guts hanging out Grand award - sci-fi sno-cat with doors and panels open to show guts 2003 Best A/C - a WW I G-bomber, looks to be in normal operating condition Best MV - an LAV-25, with every panel and door open and the guts hanging out People's choice - a U-boat, looks to be in operating condition Grand - an open cockpit sports car with hood and grille removed to show the guts 2004 Best A/C - a Sea Vixen with wings folded, radome and panels open, guts visible Best MV - an M1A1 with every panel and hatch open, power pack removed, guts hanging out People's choice - a group of 1910 aircraft in flight mode (but some have their guts exposed naturally) Grand - Same M1A1 as above

Actually, it looks like nothing much as changed, guts out-wise, in the last three years, maybe the last three decades . . .

Essentially, the prizes go to the model with the biggest X, where X = (number of fiddly bits) - (build errors). After a quarter century of modeling, pretty much anyone willing to be careful can get the number of build errors to zero or near zero. Therefore, the only way to distance yourself from the 100 other guys who've been building kits for 20+ years is to increase the first term of the equation. A tank or plane only has so many fiddly bits per square inch on its outside. Therefore, you have to increase the number of square inches modeled by peeling the skin off and showing the guts. More guts = more square inches = more fiddly bits = more awards.

(*) The average number of A/C per category over the last three years was 16; armor 14. With four awards per category you pretty much have a 1 in 4 chance of getting a prize with an airplane and a 1 in 3.5 chance for armor. The entries per category can fluctuate quite a bit from year to year: 18,

12, 17 in A/C; 15, 10, 17 in armor; 2002 - 2004 respectively. In those lean years, your award chances went up quite a bit. . .

KL

Now you're moving the goalposts. That wasn't your original contention.

"Al Superczynski" wrote

Well, you're right in that I said, "To win, it _seems_, the model must either be OOB or have every panel and door opened to show the guts inside". The inclusion of ". . . either be OOB or . . . " does drag in every category. When I wrote this, however, I was thinking of the M1A1 from this year (*).

But let's ignore the silly parsing. Isn't the following statement true?

To win the major awards, a review of recent results shows that the model generally must have every panel and door opened to show the guts inside. Because the major awards pull from all the subcategory winners, it's safe to say that these are the types of models the Society (as represented by the judges) thinks people should build.

KL

(*) Or the "2005 National Convention, Phoenix Arizona", according to the cover. I've been a member of IPMS/USA going on 30 years, and I have every issue of all of their publications since the beginning, except 6Q1 and 8U1. Reading the pubs, the most common and long-lasting complaint of the membership has not been "no one is doing anything to get new people involved", "the Society is run by aircraft guys", nor even "XXX is killing the hobby". It has been "Don't you guys ever proofread the publications?". Same as it ever was.

Not quite true, I took Best 1944 subject at Region 2 this year with a

1/350 ship, kind of hard to have it guts hanging out. No water base, no crew figures (which look stupid on a pedestal base mounted ship), guns in neutral positions....

"Ron" wrote

"To win . . . generally . . ."

Generally.

Special awards like that are all over the place anyway.

KL

Probably, in general...

Well, it's safe to say that the judges think they're the best models in their respective classes.

How do buttoned up models fare in AMPS competition?

"Al Superczynski" wrote

I was able to get a gold with one in April. It's really an apples to oranges comparison though because open hatches/open-topped are in different categories and judged slightly differently. I don't have the data on the "Best of" awards because the AMPS results aren't published with photos. It's hard to say if they were dominated by "open" models because many if not most models have an open hatch or two with a figure in it and these are classified as "closed top" - the visual keys aren't as sharp in the mind.

KL

What about exposed/opened engine bays? Aren't those given extra weight? A reading of the AMPS contest rules seems to indicate that they would...

"Al Superczynski" wrote

Not really. Some categories do not have the interiors judged:

" If the model has open hatches, and the interior is plainly visible, the entry will go in Category IV (open top or detailed interior). If the modeler uses figures to fill the hatches, the model may be placed in either Categories I, II, or III or Category IV. The interior is not judged in the former case but will be judged in the latter. If there are figures present but hatches are opened for reasons of showing the interior, the entry should go in Category IV. Vehicles with no figures and open hatches will be judged in Category IV, but if unfinished the entrant will lose points for the lack of details."

(There's really no reason open and closed vehicles couldn't be in one category - categories 1 through 8 could ALL be lumped together. With each model judged against itself, it doesn't matter what the competition is.)

That being said, the reason open vehicles are by themselves was to flag the judges. Many modelers like to put a guy or two sticking out of the hatches, but don't bother with a full interior because nothing can normally be seen. If you didn't bend the definition a little and call them closed, every one of them would lose points because you could use your pen light "death ray" to see the bare unfinished plastic in the hull. If, for some reason, you WANT the judges to consider the interior of your tank that has guys in the hatches, you are ALLOWED to enter Cat IV. If you want to build full interiors with the hatches open and clear, you HAVE to go in Cat IV. Note also that the hatch-filling figures don't have to be Bill Horan quality either. Unless you are calling it a diorama, figures are ignored.

Once a model is in Cat IV though, the interior is pretty much just "more things to go wrong". It would have a bit of advantage over an unmodified kit in that the degree of difficulty is greater, but it wouldn't have an advantage over a tank that had other, exterior only, craft work done, like correcting the hull angles, scratchbuilding a turret, or even starting with a really bad base kit. In reality, if you had two models of the same tank, from a new Tamiya kit that was "shake the box" beautiful, and constructed and finished exactly the same, they would probably max out at 9 out of 10 points. (i.e., the degree of difficulty would be very low with a very good starting kit.) If one of those tanks had an open engine compartment that was finished to the same level as the rest of the tank, it could probably get all 10 out of 10 because of the increased difficulty in dealing with an interior. A same tank built to the same level of quality as the first two but starting with a 1968 Aurora kit would also get 10 out of 10, even if no hatches were open, because there is extra difficulty in polishing a turd. Even then, in all categories except the Masters, a 9.0 score from three/four judges would get you the same award as a 10.0 - a Gold medal - so the advantage only comes into play when other areas are off in some way.

To me, the really important difference between the IPMS and AMPS judging systems comes down to this: In IPMS, a first place award says that judges thought my model was better than the others entered. In AMPS, a Gold medal says the judges thought I was a good modeler.

KL

Yep. IPMS/USA holds a contest, and AMPS holds an exhibition similar to IPMS/UK. Different strokes for different folks, etc...

I see your point about the fiddly bits but I have to take issue with your figures above. Most of the Nationals I've been to had 40 plus entries in the more popular categories while some categories (like scratchbuilt or conversions) had under five entrants. I think averaging the two types together gives an unrealistic result. If you're going for awards you've got a 1 in 10 chance of bringing home some bacon unless you're in an obscure category. Not a fan of fiddly bits,

The Keeper (of too much crap!)

"Keeper" wrote

Well, the numbers are correct. I took the numbers of entries divided by the number of categories to get the average entries per category. The fluctuation was due to splits that result from IPMS's unwillingness to neither permanently establish about 20 new A/C categories (thereby reinforcing the impression that it is "an airplane club") nor fix the number of categories while sticking to the "three best models on the table" rule (thereby pissing off the people who want IPMS to be an airplane club). Some categories did have 30-40 entries regularly, but a surprising number had 15 or less.

One could argue with the characterization that your chances were as stated, but the awards ratio still holds - about one out of four entries got a prize. (More or less, because of the OOB prize-winner sometimes placing and a very few categories not giving out the whole slate. Nevertheless, a complete account would not, in my estimation, change the ratio to below 1 in

5.)

IPMS is all about spreading the awards around, even if that means creating more categories to do so. After all, what IS the purpose of splits?

KL

Well, it's to give out more trophies to aircraft modelers! And armor modelers, as it happens.

The only thing to be said for splits is that it allows ad hoc narrowing of categories where there is already abundant competition, which arguably makes judging more objective because types of similar complexity are corraled. In practice, it doesn't work this way at all, since the typical splits are Allied/Axis, or USN/RAF/ All Other Allied. This implies that finish difficulty differs greatly within the subdivisions, which is about as bogus as can be. It would make more sense to split based on, say, single-seat/multi-seat, but I've never seen that, perhaps because there aren't enough multi-seat single engined models within the larger agglomeration to generate an adequate number of candidates for a split.

IPMS is also advancing a no-sweeps rule for National contests. This is designed to spread trophies around to as many paying customers as possible, but the problem is that your second-place trophy is now diluted in meaning when you realize the first-prize winner had three other models in category. Was yours the second-best, fifth-best, or somewhere in between? Taking third place, you see No.1 had four entries and No. 2 has three. So,you now might have the eighth-best model in the category and you're taking home a trophy that says it was third-best. Hmmm. I wonder why we aren't just going to offer honorable mentions for all those really nice models that weren't in the top three but still deserve official recognition? Now, given the strong competition that exists with 1/48 or 1/72 WWII single-engined aircraft, the eighth-best model may not differ that much from third-best, and the same models in two contests are often judged in different order, but no-sweeps gets to be a problem when you have six aircraft in 1/32, by a total of four builders.

Mark Schynert