Should I buy SOLIDWORKS?

Hi there - absolutely correct. You are a tool designer and ACAD is still the best all around tool for that type of work.

2d kicks the ass off of 3d for full tool design, however consider the following: 1) You need to do an accurate development and SW (or 3D) is exceptional at doing this. SW can very accurately unfold a part a bend at a time and your config list can show you your bend sequence. You must have this. 2D blank development is just a waste of time and not as reliable. 2) You most likely work with customer supplied models and you can use their models to develop your flats. Very important. With featureworks, you can make dumb models fully parametric with relative ease. 3) The configured part can be patterned and used as the basis for your 2D strip design. You can take all your side views off of the patterned part model. You insert a part into an assembly and then pattern it to your advance. The only issue here is that the part can only be one configuration per station - ideally you want pre & post operation, so you can overlap parts with different configs to achieve this. 4) Parametrics allow you to make a progressive die "shell" with much of the right stuff in the right place. I developed a model that I used to generate a properly timed side view of the stripper, pilot-perf and first two pilots on the correct advance and properly sized - including upper & lower shoe thickness, parallels, die, punch plate, stripper guide pins . . . The timing was also done. From the top view, I was able to manipulate mounting slots and handling holes, change the guidepin style and so on. This allowed me to play with options rapidly without any drafting needed. It saved at least 8 hours a job and it gave me a great "main" side view. I also developed the same for compounds and this could do a basic design shell and project your material costs - great for quoting and so on all with a designed shell as an output. 5) Variational details that you do over and over again but only at different lengths, sizes etc. are really great to do with SW. We used to do a unique type of self releasing form punch (i.e. no ejection, sky hooks, etc) - the same old design but a slightly new length - save yourself an hour each time you generate a fully dimensioned detail. 6) Full blown die design on SW is absolutely clunky. Dealing with fasteners is a pain, all the parametric "fudging" and frankly the drafting is somehow not "clean". Layering is weak, dimensioning a pain and strip layout a nightmare (not too easy to make a concise strip with all those needed "real life" elements - scallop cuts, 45 degree cut-bys, tolerance split for mismatch and so on). There are just too many encumberances to doing a full design with this product in a timely fashion (remember - my opinion only) - it's tough to get a "simplified" side view - my theory has always been to "tell a story" showing just what the toolmaker needs - the "high fidelity" views that SW gives are too cluttered to tell a good story - a good side view can be had, but sometimes you need more views to "tell the story" adequately. Nesting for a stick punch layout for wire EDM? Forget it! 7) Large drawing sets and the need to split your drawings into separate documents is a barrier to sharing data between your drawing panels. Not impossible, but another encumbrance. I'm personally used to a single sheet "monolithic" drawing with many frames scaled up or down as needed. Exchange of data between sheets is easier with raw 2D - easier to "cheat" which is sometimes needed. 8) On the upside if you want to do full 3D designs, there is no CNC prep down he road and your data integrity is absolutely awesome. This is the upside and you can easily see the relationships between components. In come cases, this is better, sometimes worse. With 2D I like to do a superimposed design with layering viewed thru the upper. I can see all of the design at a glance and use layers to see different states of the design. 3D can do this as well, but sometimes not as easy to see things. I have used 3D at times to develop a complex forming operation - good for visualizing a design. In one case, I had a 3 sided form op that clasped to the upper (classic - formed around the upper, never to be removed), so I needed to design a form punch with the ends that moved out on the downstroke and released on the return stroke - the good news - the part sat on the lower pad and did not clasp the punch - 3D helped a lot there - but the base design was still 2D. 9) Libraries can help in either realm. Developing a good 3D library takes time and will make 3D design easier. Most likely, you have a good 2D library that is already saving you time. Personally I find this to be the thing that I miss the most in 3D design (tooling specific). Maybe that's one of the reasons that it is "clunky" for me.

DISCLAIMER: The preceding is simply one person's opinion and this being offered does not preclude others from doing it better or having great success with pure 3D tool design.

For me, your original statement about the economy of 2D design (for this type of work) rings very true.

Later,

SMA

Reply to
Sean-Michael Adams
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Sean,

I found your discourse very interesting and appreciate you taking the time. I guess I could sum it up by saying that in many industries a lot of information is carried in the head, not on the paper. Tool and Die and mold making are two such industries. I have no idea what half of your terminology means. What is important is that you and the readers of your prints know the conventions. 3D simply doesn't lend itself to some of the shortcuts that account for this kind of skilled knowledge. It almost sounds like your drawings are more symbols with dimensions than an attempt to detail every little feature.

On the other hand, you have a very efficient system setup in 2D. No doubt it is fast for you. The real question then is, can 3D be setup to be as efficient. You speak of using layers. Layers are indeed a powerful tool in 2D and in some 3D programs like UG. The question in 3D is whether layers are needed at all. It can come down to a difference of methods.

I have to agree about drawings. SW could be a very fast drafting package if they had thought to use the sketcher to make scaled 2D drawings in the draft module. The fact is, you can't take the hard stuff that needs 3D treatment, drop it into a drawing and then finish up with 2D to complete the drawing. It is just outside a 3D system's ken. But that would sure speed things up. SolidEdge has tried to do this but still comes up short.

TOP

Reply to
TOP

Hey Jeff... I kind of feel like I've just been thorough therapy. Hehe

My 3d mentality is changing. Every now and then I get a moment of clarity and a little more light sheds on the darkness. I do have a lot of baggage, but there are many treasures in those bags.

I feel I'm a trailblazer. I did not grow up in automotive country where 3d is highly sought, I grew up in electronicville, where we mass great quantities of little details. And none of my cronies have made much effort to explore 3d. One of the better independents I keep contact with is getting more crushed parts, as am I, and he's paying a proe jock to do his extrusions. Last time I out-sourced was 3+ years ago, and wouldn't think of sending that job out today. Search the groups, you see some die interest, but not much proof of action. That's what I see, seems everyone has 3d, but not using it. Talking prog dies of course.

I had three designers under 28 years old. You'd think they would be gun ho on 3d, but no. They would say...3d? yeah, I can do that, give me another die to design. My oldest designer however went to SW classes after a 10 hour day. 4 years later though, they still use acad.

Find a partner? That's what I've been doing. I got my best dress and good perfume on waiting for someone to buy me a drink. Hehe. As far as schooling, would you really want ME in your class? Innovation doesn't come from a procedure book, it comes from expectations and a will to overcome. I have at least 1.5 of those things.

There was a well known designer (in our circle) that was famous for sketching as he talked. When I finally met him at a tool review, sure enough, he penciled the most perfect little iso drawings all over that print. It was like watching Charles Schulz draw snoopy. I'll never forget that.

I didn't obsess about regions, they did. I want to know about part configs.

Thanks for the encouragement, if I get SW I'll let you know how it stacks up. In fact, I'll let everyone know. Hehe.

BTW, I wonder what grade Roxanne got on your "challenging implant" model?

Reply to
Diemaker

I'm assuming you mean open "like a book" so you can see both halves at the same time. It can be done, I think the easiest way would be make a new blank assembly and add in the original assembly of the mold (or casting die)twice. Use the properties function to change the configuration of one half or the other in the new assembly to what you need. Then make your edrawing. As you will find out there are a lot of ways to skin a horse. This is just one of them. Also that file, it was not at all jerky for me. It could be your video card, if you decide to get SWX check the website for recommended cards. It will save lots of grief down the road. Give me a call if you have any questions.

Mike Eckstein

Reply to
Michael Eckstein

Now that I read your reply carefully, you probably want to show the die "straight" open. You could do someting similar to my last post if you have a lot of "in context" relationships, or with configs and mates, or---------

Mike Eckstein

Reply to
Michael Eckstein

Hello SMA.

"You are a tool designer and ACAD is still the best all around tool for that type of work. "... You're either a real good salesman, or the first authority I've read who speaks the truth. If you listed all the engineering disciplines by order that they benefited from 3d, dies would be at the bottom.

"1) SW can very accurately unfold a part a bend at a time" ... Individual bend control. What better way to play with form progressions, eh. Although I found out bends only go from folded to flat. Occasionally need incremental bending (flat to 45 to 90)

"2) .... Very important. With featureworks, you can make dumb models fully parametric with relative ease."... I'm looking forward to that. So often have to remove a fillet to extrude a toolbody too. But dose it really work? I have many problems with imported geometry in IV. Often parts get translated a couple of times before I get it. The 3d world is a solid mess it seems. I'm hoping parasolids long history makes it a better translator. Until/if the world unifies on one kernel, dumb solid tools are very appealing.

"3) The configured part can be patterned and used as the basis for your 2D strip design."... you betcha. Number one desire. Even if I design in 2d, want the strip in 3d. So often in design reviews people have no ideal what they are looking at and prevents them from giving good input. With a 3d iso, my grandma can tell what's going on. But the big question, do station configs actually work. Well SMA has said all the right things to support his knowledge of dies. If he says it dose, I'll take his word as the voice of authority.

"ideally you want pre & post operation, so you can overlap parts with different configs to achieve this."... in 2d I show strip in pre-hit position. In 3d you have to show post-hit. But in 3d, easy to add another strip and feed it one station. At least for checking. I've even assembled 2 strips, one progression apart, then boolean subtract and you get the pre-hit remnant and slugs too!

"4)... - great for quoting." ... I never thought of that. a dummy die controlled with a few parameters you can instantly get weights/cost from. Excellent! Combine that with featureworks to deconstruct a part into stations, and a strip template ready made to accept the station configs. You could have a real good picture in no time. I wonder if that's how QuickQuote (quickpress) works?

"5) Variational details that you do over and over "... dies certainly could make use of a 3d library. A lot of planning to preset parameter for bom though. I believe you can specify which sketch dimensions can be used in the drawing at the part level, for auto dimensioning on the print... A way to facilitate detailing of the library part. What would be best, if individual detail drawings of library parts could be ready-made, then pasted into a sheet. I would guess this is not possible, in any package.

"6) Full blown die design on SW is absolutely clunky." ... telling it like it is instills more confidence than a big surprised later.

"Dealing with fasteners is a pain, all the parametric fudging"... Oh no, I'm getting scared, care to elaborate? I know screws are a pita, what parameter fudging? I've heard params in SW are not as good as IV, which seem very easy.

"and frankly the drafting is somehow not clean"...One advantage IV has, I think, is the drawing side. Given all that it is doing, quite fast. And prints are clean and nice as they get. Makes a tough decision. Do you want to be with a pretty girl, or hang with your buddies. Know what I mean???

"it's tough to get a "simplified" side view" ... no different in IV. Big advantage to 2d. I'm thinking of having a generic side of lifters and punch lengths and such. Then section just the unique stuff on the tool.

"Nesting for a stick punch layout for wire EDM? Forget it!"... lol

HEY BIG QUESTION... Sw has ordinate dimensioning??? Anyone written auto-ordinate programs?

"7) Large drawing sets"... I know. Last job I detailed 4 stage tools in one 2d drawing complete. Must have been 40 sheets crammed with details. + plans, boms, order sheets... all in one 8 meg file. They don't update, details might not match the plans, but you can zoom to any detail in a second. In 3d you spend 30% of the last half of design waiting on files to open. Can SW have 10 sheets in one file? Does that one file take forever to open? One print per detail would be slick for end customer, but try to run that through a shop.

"8) On the upside if you want to do full 3D designs, there is no CNC prep"... well a lot of times you have to close up holes and pockets to single point machine. Another + for configs, a "designed" and "CNC" config.

"I have used 3D at times to develop a complex forming operation" ... I've said it many times, 3d makes the hard stuff easy, and the easy stuff hard.

"DISCLAIMER:" ... I have designed dies for 17 years now. Probably

400 - 500 designs, not little ones either. Designed first 3d die with acad r10 (for money, not play), been designing or supplementing design with a parametric modeler for 4 years... outside of SW specifics which I have no knowledge of, I agree with everything SMA has said.

But we're not giving up yet. Are we?

Thank you SMA.

Reply to
Diemaker

Showing a "clam shell" view certainly is the most descriptive single view you can have of a die. But constraints make it hard to drive that. I was talking about pulling the die straight apart. Just like that mold would be in the open position, with the ejectors out. But open in a die is pretty cool. We got a lot of sprung components that move. Plus the whole strip. Best thing about 3d is showing the die open.

I'm assuming SW can config an assy by changing constraints. Right?

Reply to
Diemaker

I hear you Matt. When I saw sketch blocks the first thing I thought about was sketching a whole die with the blocks. I've read others talk about using split method, so I started there.

There are a couple of die specific add-ons. Twice the cost of SW though. Now we're talking close to the price of UG's die package, which I hear is killer.

I may take your advice. Thanks.

Reply to
Diemaker

Hello Diemaker,

Since having multiple parts in a single file seems important to you, you might want to check out IronCAD. You can create the entire assembly in one file without using tricks.

Kevin

Reply to
irontest

Diemaker

Having read the replies to your question, I have little to add.

I have nearly zero experience designing molds and dies but much of what was said, in reference to that field, made some sense non-the-less and I would agree with most everyone's observations and opinions.

I design fixtures for mig welding cells in the automotive industry with a local integrator and have been using cad for near 20 years.

My 2 cents:

I find Inventor better suited than Solidworks for managing and developing multiple projects similtaneously. It is a bit of a bear to get a handle on how they work and to set them up though.

The pack-n-go utility in Inventor is something Solidworks should develop.

I find Inventor utilizes a more common language and hence is more intuitve to use. Hence, a shorter learning curve. (I had detested Acad for many years and swore to never purchase an Autodesk product. But am hugely impressed with Inventor and not because of the difference between 2d and 3d)

Inventor has a nifty capability where a model can be driven by the 2d drawing. (dangerous too though)

Did I read that Inventor is dual processor ready? Solidworks is not. (coming soon)

Solidworks is crappy at rotating (IV equivalent is orbit and vastly superior) Where IV creates a center of rotation upon the first surface beneath the mouse pointer Solidworks always rotates about the center of mass of the whole model. A pain when doing up close work. A really big pain. (SW can rotate about a point if you preselect the point - but why??) Additionally, IV will revolve CW or CCW about the center of the screen as well as the spin / rotate ("orbit") The workaround to this is to purchase a "Space ball"?

Solidworks is mouse click intensive as compared with Inventor.

Edrawings are great and by far superior to DWF platform. Although, Edrawings have yet to show edges (outlined) and sometimes it can be difficult to discern one component from another. I preffer edrawings by far and use them constantly. Kudos for that.

Solidworks has a closer relationship with CAM packages which may be a big plus for mold and die makers. But that's mot my strength and I believe SolidEdge is the better choice there.

We use many off the shelf parts and there is great of support for solidworks (by way of component models) from an increasing number of large vendors. (Support for Inventor is catching up)

I would rather work with Inventor but Solidworks serves us better and that's what we use.

Richard

Reply to
RRoussy

Thanks for the good input RR.

IV's viewing mechanism is terrific. SW ALWAYS rotates on COG??? Oh, no, that's a big one. I'm thinking I need a demo to find out what other surprises are in store. Not being able to center viewing spin in SW would gnaw on me like not having configs in IV. Spaceball lets you center spin? Or just faster to spin, pan, zoom?

IV has no dual processor capability, except for plug-ins, rendering and FEA I think. They tried with the early releases but had problems. If CPU power stays flat, that's the route everyone will have to take, eh. I wonder if microsoft got some built in multitasking with IBM's chip they developed for the xbox. Hehe, that would be funny if powerPC takes the lead right after Apple switches to Intel.

Adsk DWF doesn't have edges either. They just added dynamic slicing, but only capped. I think adding slicing killed their perspective view, thats gone now. Edrawings vastly better in every direction.

We've had zero problems with machine coding from .sat files. But adsk is modifying it's kernel and wonder when it will have to create a new format. Cnc code could be a gotcha.

"I would rather work with Inventor but Solidworks serves us better..." If it weren't for the 3 things I mentioned up front, I'd be happy. Those 3 things have been a real killer tho.

Reply to
Diemaker

SolidWorks has an option to rotate about screen center, which can be set as a default.

Matt

Reply to
matt

It still doesn't work really well though as the enter of the screen is still rotating too far in or out. Noticable on long parts.

What you currently have to do is select a vertex to rotate around. Problem here is the selection is not remembered and has to be made after each command. The other better option is the "Zoom to selection" which sets the rotation center on the feature and holds it til the next zoom. This works well.

Siolidworks has responded on their forums that they have this corrected in 2007.

Reply to
Jason

Matt, maybe once every week or two (SWks 2005), my center of rotation flips from the standard default, to Center of Screen, and I have never ever understood what I did to cause it.

With my small parts, I rarely have a need to rotate on anything but Center of Gravity, but with longer parts it starts to be an issue.

Is there a hot key which causes the center of rotation to flip, as I suspect there must be?

I attempted to use SolidWorks Help to find an answer but didn't get one, and didn't think it important enough to call my VAR yet.

Many Thanks - Bo

Reply to
BoC

matt wrote in news:MPG.1dfe3e1810236314989757 @news.verizon.net:

Yes, I have my system set to that option. It still pales in comparison.

Open a medium assembly (say 100 unique parts - not including fasteners) and zoom in close to a # 8 screw. Now rotate while maintaining the screw in view. I will give you this, It might be my video card, but the rotate don't work right for me.

rich

Reply to
RRoussy

You know, I've seen that happen, and I can't think of what's causing it. The setting is in the registry, so there's something going on there which is a bit frightening. There is no default hotkey that toggles it, but you can look in the menu to see if one is listed there for you.

Matt

Reply to
matt

Middle (scroll wheel) click on axis, then middle (scroll wheel) hold & drag / zoom. Unless I'm missing something here? SW2006.

Greg

Reply to
Greg

We were talking about how the switch at View > Modify > Rotate about screen center seems to get mysteriously turned on sometimes, not about how to rotate about a selected point.

Reply to
matt

And to add to the eDrawings saga, it is not a Solid Works only tool. It is made by Geometric Software Solutions and Solid Works just resells it for their software. The Viewer is free and the Professional version can be purchased directly from GSS for the following CAD systems: Pro/E, Inventor, Catia, NX, and Solid Edge.

Reply to
ken

Ken,

That was an interesting link. I dug through it and came up with a couple interesting factoids.

Geometric has about 1,100 employees, most of which are in a south asian country. About 75% of the workforce is 29 or younger. The average personel expense is about $9,451 per person. I would guess a similar company in the US would have an average personel expense quite a bit higher. They spent a whopping $73,428 on software tools in 2005. That is company wide IIRC. A fortune 500 company I used to work for spent that much on a single workstation in the early 90s. Their $36,000 tax bill really had to hurt.

So a couple conclusions. That 75% of the workforce is entry level to 7 years of experience. That inflation plus a newly formed middle class will drive expectations higher during the lifetime of the workforce. I wonder where they will be in 30 years. We had the baby boom. They have the bit boom. And finally, communication of product definition has to be top down and is well filtered from the end user.

ken wrote:

Reply to
TOP

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