Best H0 system for newcomer?

But then I guess that the european market is primarily a toy

Just curious , what makes you guess this? It's very easy to assume things wrong, I myself thought that Lionel made only Toy Trains ( very expensive ones) but seeing the reactions here I might be wrong.

Greetz Jan

It seems there is a divide as to what people consider to be toys. They are all toys to me. Meaning I like running them more than modeling them in precise detail.

I don't think the divide is all that serious, other than in some people who lack any sense of humor. Great modelers create things that are a marvel to look at. But they do play with them eventually.

Me? I have a Lionel nuclear reactor with a metal arm that picks up little metal balls and inserts them into the reactor. The balls just roll right out the other side and land in a cup. Meanwhile, glow-in-the-dark plastic balls fill up a bin for unloading into a gondola.

That is precisely the way real nuclear reactors work... ;)

But then if someone tried to model a real working nuclear reactor, I think the homeland security department would be knocking on their door.

Spender spake thus:

Oh, come on, don't be so naive: I think you know perfectly well the difference between what would be termed a "toy" and what would qualify as a scale model. After all, you've spent big bux buying toys, no?

And yes, it's nothing to get worked up over: in a way, of course, they're *all* toys. And the basic idea is to have fun with them on some level. But really, you'd have to be an idiot to place most Lionel stuff (including the nuclear reactor you described) in the same category as a faithful brass rendition of a certain class of Pennsy steamer, just for an example. Or a layout lovingly built for realism, compared to the under-the-xmas-tree oval.

all toys to me.< This is a world wide argument. If you take it out of trains you could consider a Toyoda transportation while a Ferrari is a toy. I could expand this to practically anything and in fact push anyone's buttons.

snipped-for-privacy@aim.com spake thus:

Fuck off, Curt, and go away. Nobody wants you here.

(including the nuclear reactor you described) in the same category as a faithful brass rendition of a certain class of Pennsy steamer, just for an example.<

We could make the definition thus and in fact I think insurance companies do; Lionel is a toy, low cost or expensive. The brass Pennsy is a work of art and therefore expensive AND needs a rider on your insurance policy.

Jon Miller spake thus:

Problem is, many of Spender's toys are much more expensive than my scale models (plastic, not brass). No rider on insurance policy here (in fact, no insurance policy at all).

If, and I say that because I don't know the extent of the Lionel range, Lionel made a scale model of locomotive XYZ but put wheels that were only suitable for roundheaded tinplate rail, the majority of modellers would still consider it to be a toy train because it wouldn't operate on a scale model railway.

Regards, Greg.P.

I would label those firms "cottage industries" rather than "manufacturers". It's probably a pedantic difference but I was orginally thinking in terms of Bachmann, Model Power, Lifelike ... Athearn?

On that basis any track of 16 to 17mm gauge will work with any other ;-)

I've seen some dodgy models from those brands - the same models are still in the latest Bachmann catalogue!

It's not my field but I'm sure from MR reviews at least one major brand needs a slide switch on the decoder thrown to convert between DC and DCC. That's no problem to you or I but to the beginner opening the box for the first time it could spoil Christmas afternoon!

Most beginners want to lay an oval of track - a 10" #6 turnout will neither fit opposite an 8" snap-track straight nor replace an 18" radius curve - it doesn't fit.

$10-$20 locos, cars with loose couplers, steel rails and nasty transformer controllers might work straight from the box, but they may also put the beginner off the hobby inside a month whereas a few more dollars spent on a reasonable quality set has a much better chance of providing a decent start.

Regards, Greg.P.

snip

The Scale Hudson had wheels that were contoured for 'square topped rail'. Also the rest of the Scale series. Cars, and I believe an 0-6-0 also.

Chuck Davis

only suitable for roundheaded tinplate rail, the majority of modellers would still consider it to be a toy train because it wouldn't operate on a scale model railway<

Didn't Sunset produce a group of very nice brass engines that could be bought either way?

I understand what you are saying Greg, but MOST of the HO model production started as what you are referring to as 'cottage industries'. Often a 'sideline to an existing business, because the 'original' business's equipment could easily be used for the 'manufacturing' steps needed. Of the ones you listed "Bachmann, Model Power, Lifelike, Athearn", Athearn is the only "Real Model Railroad" company. The others are "Manufacturing operations" that have a significant 'model' output. Athearn has been gobbled up bu the 'Business interests' now, along with Model Die Casting and others. MDC started as a 'sideline' for a 'job casting outfit' in Los Angeles, Calif.

Chuck Davis

I produce a few items for local modellers and get other items etched/manufactured by local industry - I certainly don't consider myself to be a "manufacturer"!

snip

That would be true, but I don't think THAT decoder comes in any 'sets'. That was a review of an 'add in' decoder for 'the knowledgeable modeler' to use at his discretion for conversion/replacement. In which case, if he couldn't understand the need for and meaning of the instructions, then he was over his head, and should seek help.

RIGHT ---- Except --- #6 switch ? NOT a sectional track item. Sectional Track 'Snap Switch' Hey, it fits!!!! (IF the curve was being done with 'sectional track'.)

This has been true for years, going back to the 1950s and even before. Same comments true then as now.

Chuck Davis

I'm sure I read a review of a complete loco - particularly a loco that might be offered as a better quality alternative to a $25- set to a newcomer asking the question in the subject line.

Quote: "You can buy flex track, Snap Track and turnouts from Atlas, Kato, Shinohara, and Model Engineering and they will fit together." Read that in conjunction with the subject line!

Check the subject line of the thread! :-)

Regards, Greg.P.

snip

At that level, I don't think I would either.

BUT Just for instance, several of your 'friends' want to model a particular 'car/ loco/ building, whatever, and you find that you can get some parts made up, 10 ea. @ $6.00, or 50 ea. @ $1.00. You look at that, and go the 50 parts route. You find that you have 15 friends, and the rest of the parts sit in a box, on the shelf. This same pattern happens several times over the course of a couple of years. Another 'friend', while rummaging through your "junk", notes what's sitting there and suggest packaging the parts and making them available generally. Where is the line where you are 'suddenly' a manufacturer?

Chuck D.

snip

At that point, all I can say, is that 'someone' is operating at too high a level of expectation. BEFORE the purchase of 'flex track et al' there needs to be some research as to WHAT (it's limitations included) is to be done.

Chuck D.