[HO] Shinohara turnouts

The problem with DCC is that the whole railroad is powered from one power source that is at full voltage at all times. A short anywhere on the railroad will affect the whole railroad (or that part of it powered by a particular controller) and thus, things go haywire when somebody trips the controller. What makes things even worse is that the controller has an electronic shutdown mechanism that works very fast so things like a quick swipe of a wheel across the power will shut things down firmly in microseconds and that is bad news. As a result, any location where the two rails come close to each other and can be bridged by a wheel is to be avoided at all costs. Thus, the continous power to both directions of a turnout is the best way to do things as you can't run into a short by overrunning a block end but rather you can go through the turnout even though it is set the wrong way. I'll also note that metal wheelsets on cars can be a real problem on many railroads as any reversing loops need to hold a full train otherwise and that can really limit the length of a train if the reversing section is designed badly.

-- Bob May Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less. Works every time it is tried!

Just to add a little about the results of a short on a DCC system; as Bob said, a momentary short can cause the layout to shut down for a brief period (or longer). When a decoder equipped engine loses its power due to the short, and then gets power again the momentum cycle starts all over again. When this happens the engine starts up slowly and speeds up at whatever rate it was programmed to do - making the impact of the momentary short much more visible. Even worse, if you have a sound equipped engine the sound cycle starts all over again too. Now also audibly noticeable.

The point at which DCC becomes viable is well beyond my layout experince. I've operated on some fairly large layouts that were run with more than 10 trains running at one time and had no problems with the DC setup. There are natural stopping points on any well built railroad where you have to move your control anyway and leaving the train running is not really a wise thing to do anyway. None of the railroads that I have regularly run on have had more than 2 throttles accessing a certain area with the exception of yard areas where the yard controlled areas can be also controlled by the mainline controls. Proper operation of the controls will allow for the smooth control of the areas. For the smaller railroad, the usage of DCC becomes relatively unimportant as the natural seperation of the yards and mains make for simple control anyway. Only on a large layout can you really run more than 1 train on the main as transit time of the train over the trackage is so short, especially at the high train speeds that many run at. I'm not familiar with the variations of the various controllers for DCC but if you have one that has 4 outputs, you can indeed do a fair bit with it for blocking but I'll bet that that controller isn't near the bottom of the price range for controllers and will probably only be bought when the DCC user realizes that indeed, the need for blocking is really required for DCC systems. I will also note that I have spent less on the trackage and electronics for my On3 railroad than a single controller costs by a large margin. I guess that if you wish to spend money, DCC is the way to go. Personally, I'm more happy with the better abilities that I can get from DC controllers than what I've seen with DCC.

-- Bob May Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less. Works every time it is tried!

DCC is a personal preference, for both large and small railroad owners.

With DCC 'radio control', you don't *have to* stop to move the controls. Also, the stopping points would have to be within a tether length of the throttle. That's what, 6 feet to either side of the plug in point?

That is very true, but, the operators still have to mess with toggle switches for block control, and worry about over running their blocks boundries.

I disagree with this point. DCC allows for more fluid operations on any railroad. On a small pike, the trains can follow more closely, or interact with each other. Again, with out worrying about block boundries.

I am not sure what you mean by this. Most of the Digitrax throttles have the ability to directly control two trains at any one time. You can start a train on one throttle and dispatch it so that there is no direct control and the train will continue to run unattended. (This is not recommended, but it can be done.) While that train is running, you can do whatever with another two engines.

The DT400r from Digitrax is approximatly $225.00USd. True, it is much more expensive than any of the MRC DC throttles, but it is also much more versitile. EG: With DCC, you can turn the lights on or off at will. Activate the mars light or other accessory that is wired to the decoder. {note; I am not mentioning constant lighting because that is not just a DCC function.} There are at least two versions of DCC uncoupling in HO.

With DCC, blocks take on a different meaning. The blocks on DC would be the equivelent of Power Districts in DCC. Blocks are now a signaling term for the control of trains.

There is a need to double gap power districts because that would mean multiple boosters or power splitters are in use. They would have their own power buss under the tracks. Some people will also add SPST toggles in line with the power wires to areas for trouble shooting assistance.

Yes, you probably did. But there are trade offs. DCC is not about costs. DCC does cost more than DC. Not only that, but it is a continuing cost as you acquire more locomotives.

I am not sure what abilities you are getting from your controller, but I don't see how they can be better than DCC on too many levels.

Could you please expand on this?

What DCC controllers have you seen? Brand and type.

-- Please note; return email address has changed. It is now snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net. Emails to Earthlink will be ignored.

The Gratiot Valley Railroad Club bi-annual train show and sale March 7, 2004, at the Macomb Community College Sports and Expo Center. Macomb County Michigan. Please visit our Web Site at:

Ah, so what you really meant is that the 'frog' is 'isolated', that's not the same as 'insulated'.

J>

I tout DCC because I believe that it is the greatest. I also realize that not everyone thinks so. If I have mis-represented anything or you need further clarification of anything that I said, feel free to explain or ask.

Defending my choice? Well, yeah, I guess so. I didn't write all that with defense in mind, but if that's the way it came across, it was not intentional.

-- Please note; return email address has changed. It is now snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net. Emails to Earthlink will be ignored.

The Gratiot Valley Railroad Club bi-annual train show and sale March 7, 2004, at the Macomb Community College Sports and Expo Center. Macomb County Michigan. Please visit our Web Site at:

That's absolutely true, Frank. So why did you then continue to tout DCC as the greatest for the rest of the message?

Me, I'm with Bob, but I can recognize that there are other ways for other folks without having to defend my choice :-).

One thing that has no been mentioned as yet is the switching layout. I have a small, by many standards, switching layout and used DC and it was a pain as you can never have enough blocks. Switched to DCC and it is so much easier to operate, no blocks at all. I bought a Digitrax out of date unit, which works great for me. All switches are hand operated, so the benefit of the larger DCC units make no sense for me. Each layout is bound to be different depending on the purpose of the layout.

Chuck Callaghan snipped-for-privacy@virginia.edu

Frank, you need to run on a railroad with CTC control of the trains! Overrun the end of a block and you are in deep trouble! Go look at the way that the prototype runs their trains and you will see that they just don't allow locos to run at random about the tracks but rather control the movements quite strictly. Yeah, I've taken the yard switcher out onto the main in CTC territory but that only at the allowance of the CTC operator. When I did such to gain a few dozen more carlengths of cut length to make switching easy, the rest of the railroad did suffer problems with operations. Dumb CTC operators!

-- Bob May Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less. Works every time it is tried!

The frogs are metal but are not powered. They can be powered up but it is up to the purchaser to determine how to set that up.

Are you talking real or model railroads or both? I understand the trouble with overrunning a block. With DC, if someone else is using that block, your engine takes on the characteristics of the train that has the right of way in the block. With DCC you still can stop your train. Even if you are embarrassed, you still have full control of your train.

-- Please note; return email address has changed. It is now snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net. Emails to Earthlink will be ignored.

The Gratiot Valley Railroad Club bi-annual train show and sale March 7, 2004, at the Macomb Community College Sports and Expo Center. Macomb County Michigan. Please visit our Web Site at:

Model railroad with block detection and so forth. It does teach you not to overrun blocks just for the nastiness that you get for having done so from the others.

-- Bob May Losing weight is easy! If you ever want to lose weight, eat and drink less. Works every time it is tried!

You can have DC radio control and DC walk around control with memory, just like the DCC systems.

Signalling, stoping blocks or other prototypical safe working systems solve the above problems. You can use automatic block selection to get rid of manual block selection if you wish to spend similar amounts of money as DCC users.

Only useful if your prototype allows such close operation. 90% of prototypical operations can be handled easily with DC. How easy it is to operate is up to the layout designer.

Ok if your prototype is easily fitted with such working lights.

Can also be done using DC.

The best DC controllers are going to be as good as the best DCC controller with a back EMF decoder fitted locomotive. As soon as you use a cheap decoder, your speed regulation is no better than a cheap DC controller, but not as bad as the cheapest toy train set controllers.

Mostly used NEC / Wangrove including radio controllers, decoders from many manufacturers..

True enough. But again, you still retain control of the train with DCC.

-- Please note; return email address has changed. It is now snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net. Emails to Earthlink will be ignored.

The Gratiot Valley Railroad Club bi-annual train show and sale March 7, 2004, at the Macomb Community College Sports and Expo Center. Macomb County Michigan. Please visit our Web Site at:

Very true, Greg. However with most switches and DCC you will produce a short before you derail. But, you do lose control of the train when it shorts out.

Gregory Procter wrote:

-- Please note; return email address has changed. It is now snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net. Emails to Earthlink will be ignored.

The Gratiot Valley Railroad Club bi-annual train show and sale March 7, 2004, at the Macomb Community College Sports and Expo Center. Macomb County Michigan. Please visit our Web Site at:

If you derail through running against a turnout then you lose control with DC or DCC.

Regards, Greg.P.

Yes, and I have had both. But I still like the flexibility of DCC. However, reread what Bob wrote about the natural stopping points and moving the control. That is what I was responding to. If he had mentioned anything about radio, my response would have been different.

But the operators must still throw toggle switches to have the control of a block.

True. What 'off the shelf' systems are there for the average model railroader? Intergrated or not.

Not just if. There are still many modelers who do not follow a prototype . They make their own rules.

All my experience with railroads is North American, with heavy emphasis on MU Electrics, so that is what my explainations are geared to. All the trains that I have seen that are moving, have lights on.

How? I am aware of the track magnets, electro-magnets and devices inserted between the couplers. Are there other ways that I am unaware of? I am talking KD or Clone couplers. I didn't mention that because I thought it was understood. (My Americentric attitude. Sorry 'bout that.)

The DCC uncoupling is a decoder inside a freight car or locomotive that activates a solenoid to pull the trip pin and open the knuckle on either end.

I disagree here. My understanding of back EMF is that it keeps the speed constant for the throttle setting. Are you thinking of Momentum?

Even the cheap decoders have the speed tables so you can make somewhat incompatible engines operate together. All of my DCC engines will start to creep when my throttle shows 1 on the LCD screen, regardless of the decoder installed.

All my experience has been with Digitrax throttles, and decoders, like you, from many manufacturers.

However, this is getting away from the original post.

-- Please note; return email address has changed. It is now snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net. Emails to Earthlink will be ignored.

The Gratiot Valley Railroad Club bi-annual train show and sale March 7, 2004, at the Macomb Community College Sports and Expo Center. Macomb County Michigan. Please visit our Web Site at:

It's also simple enough to wire your analogue blocks so that the train can over-run if you want to. With multiple unit railcars/ multiheaded/banked trains it's the only way to wire them.

There's no need to throw toggle switches - just set the route and have the turnouts link the controller to the tracks. This of course requires something like a Peco switch on each turnout motor and some relatively complex wiring, but have you noticed the number of posts about DCC, fitting decoders and sorting DCC wiring?

All the European firms sell them - cheaper than their DCC systems!