Slightly OT: Most important train locomotives

to the end.

small slow locomotives and railways to large faster locomotives/railways)

Remembering that this is 200 years of technological development, Diesel and Electric each need their own 10 most important.

Steam? Diesel? Electric?

Worldwide? Europe? The UK? Or just the US?

Your question needs to be more specific.

Europe needs to be divided at least into France, Germany, Austria for steam

Agreed, that's how I'd break it down. But I'd say that judging by the header - "train locomotives" - the OP isn't all that familiar with railways, so I reckon he/she wouldn't understand the distinction.

I like your suggested list, by the way.

Cheers,

Mark.

It was the first, but only ran once because it was too heavy for the rails, and wound up as a stationary boiler. There were several mining locomotives developed in 1812 that worked very well, and proved the concept far better than Trevithick's locomotive did.

In terms of significant in terms of locomotive development, there was nothing really that interesting about this locomotive.

Baltimore & Ohio's little electric locomotives of 1895 should be put on there someplace since they were the first electric locomotives to operate mainline trains (even if only for a few miles through the tunnel).

Burlington's Pioneer Zephyr or the UP 10000 or some of the conteporary British lightweight internal combustion powered train set should be on there due to their starting of the lightweight streamliner.

Milwaukee Road's Hiawatha 4-4-2 was the first locomotive that was requied to operate at 100 mph just to keep the scheduled timetable, eventually producing the high speed service concept now operated on many lines today.

Alco's RS-1 was the first "road switcher" - the first diesel designed as a general purpose locomotive for whatever you wanted to move with it. Almost all freight diesel locomotives in the world today, except purpose-designed switchers, can trace their ancestory to this locomotive. Previous to that specific purpose diesels were being built in low number, just like the steam locomotives that came before them.

Mark Newton spake thus:

Maybe not; taking their question at face value, we can assume "WisdomSeeker" is asking about the 10 most historically important locos anywhere, at any time. So I'll take a stab at it. In no particular order:

o the John Bull o the EMD F3 (1st-generation diesel) o the Jupiter o the Flying Scotsman o the Big Boy o the GG-1 o the Planet o the C.P. Huntington o the DeWitt Clinton o Southern Pacific GS-4

My list is, of course, somewhat North American-centric, as that's where I'm from.

One problem with the question as posed, in general: does "historically important locomotive" refer to *particular* locomotives (like the Flying Scotsman), or to classes or types of locomotives?

And since the OP is looking for pictures of these, it can be assumed that the list should be of truly famous locos for which pictures can be obtained, not someone's list of favorite, obscure engines used on NZ lines.

"Firsts" always make it - well, it sets a target for others to shoot at ;-)

Very true, other than it frequently being claimed as "the biggest", "most powerful" etc etc which of course it wasn't. At least there are still examples in exsistance.

Oh goodie, another "first" to be knocked down! ;-)

If the Dutch hadn't been there first surely the Germans would have won that first?

Surely that would be an aside?

Only the US had "switchers".

I purposely stayed with steam locos, as those seem to have been thoroughly argued. Electrics and Diesels (note the name) seem to still be in contention.

Regards, Greg.P.

A standard Stephenson product.

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That was a train.

Yet another Electric loco and technologically behind the times.

Another Stephenson product!

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Question marks meaning "why".

Half yours are obscure, unexceptional types.

It (the Q class) is a Baldwin (that's US) product, but the beginning of a larger breed of loco.

Regards, Greg.P.

Greg Procter spake thus:

Now, see, Greg, that's where you're wrong.

Everyone had switchers. Other people just called them other names. Like where you're from, they're called "shunters", right?

They're still the same goddamn thing. Only anal pissants like you want to make a big deal out of the semantic differences.

Isn't it you making a semantic difference in claiming "the first road switcher"?

All the present day locomotives you are refering to - DC operated Diesel Electrics - trace their ancestry back to I/C generator/traction motor locomotives developed in Sweden around 1913. Those were railcars, self powered passenger carriages, but intended to pull mixed trains on mainlines.

Regards, Greg.P.

David, I can't follow your reasoning. Why do you regard any of these locos as being among the "10 most historically important locos anywhere, at any time."?

Greg listed *one* NZGR locomotive, which is *anything but* obscure - you're betraying your own ignorance by making that remark. The Q was the first application anywhere of a wide, deep, bituminous coal-burning firebox and radial trailing truck to a six-coupled passenger engine. The first true Pacific.

Cheers,

Mark.

First *US* locomotive to operate mainline trains...

Highly arguable.

Again, highly arguable. I would say that it is incorrect, since diesel development took place in parallel in a number of countries where there was no reference to what Alco were doing.

Cheers,

Mark.

Wrong. The bloke who is on the ground is the shunter, not the loco.

I find myself agreeing with Greg, although he could have expressed himself more clearly. Road switchers, as exemplified by the Alco RS-1, were originally a US-only concept. Until the rest of the world was overrun by US diesel exports...

Cheers,

Mark.

On reflection, I'll withdraw that remark for the time being, until I have a chance to do some more reading on the subject.

Very light weight trains.

This is why I used the term "diesel designed as a general purpose locomotive for whatever you wanted to move with it". I only called it a "road switcher" because that is what ALCO called it when it built the thing. The name "switcher" is a little deceiving in this name because if anything it wasn't designed for switching / shunting dutiy. It was designed to be a general purpuse do-anything generic locomotive.

The Swedish locomotives did not cause a revolution in the way railroads did business.

Almost the entire first production run of the ALCO RS-1 was grabbed up and sent to Iran in order to feed Russia during World War II. Thus, not only did the RS-1 change the way the USA thought about diesels, but a number of other countries as well.

I suppose also the term "most important locomotives" might also apply to the fact that the RS-1 played a role in Allied victory during World War II.

Important in what way? Influence on future locomotive designs? Popularity with the traveling public? Technological breakthroughs even if it didn't influence future locomotive designs?

I wonder if a better way to do this (though not very easy for someone who isn't familiar with locomotive engineering) would be to list the

10 most important innovations in loco design, and then tie those features to the first engines which included them.That way it would be clear why each locomotive had been put on the list. Doing it that way would make it clear that engineering comes before razzle-dazzle, even if it's the razzle-dazzle that makes people remember things.

1. The Beaver & Meadows RR Hercules. The first true American type (4-4-0) to incorporate "equalized" (independantly sprung) drivers which made a four wheel drive truly practical. The equalization allowed each driver to rise and fall on the springs to follow uneven track. Equalization increased traction, and reduced the chance of derailment by allowing each driver to keep its tire snug onto the rail and its flange set fully inside the railhead. Earlier rigid suspensions would allow one driver to lift off the rail, which made it easier for the wheel flange to climb up onto the top of the rail and then down on the wrong side, putting the locomotive on the ground. Hercules was built by Philadephia's Garrett & Eastwick company in 1836. The equalized drivers were introduced on a rebuild a year or so later. The resulting design was so satisfactory that more than 25000 American 4-4-0's were built by 1900. IThe American type outnumbered all other steam types by 3 to 1 in the 19th century.
2. The Electromotive Corp light weight streamliners, the Burlington Zephyr and the Flying Yankee. These were light weight stream lined trains with the "power car" integrated into a single train. They were a forerunner of the vast fleets of Electro Motive Division (EMD) diesels that dominated US railroading for 40 years. The power cars carried a

600 hp Winton "distillate" internal combustion engine turning a DC generator to power electric traction motors, the basic arrangement used in diesel electric locomotives.

1. The EMD "F-unit". The diesel freight locomotive that caused the US fleet of steam locomotives to be scrapped by the end of the 1950's. The "F-unit" was handsomely styled and had multiple unit control, by which a single engineer could operate any number of "F-units" ganged up on the head end of a train. This locomotive gave the US diesel locomotive market to EMD. Existing locomotive builders, Alco, Baldwin, Lima and Fairbanks Morse were largely driven out of the business. The first F-3 models went on sale just before WWII. During the war, the war production board restricted the manufacture of diesel locomotives so that the scarce and high tech diesel engines could be diverted to war work such as submarines, naval vessels, and Army power plants. The few F-3 units in commission worked hard thru out the war and gave EMD invaluable operating experience, and allowed the bugs to be worked out. After the war EMD could offer a proven and highly reliable design, whereas the competition's locomotives all suffered from various teething troubles characteristic of new designs. By the time the competitors had their products debugged, EMD owned the US diesel market. Ownership was retained until GE finally became competitive sometime in the 1980's. Moral of the story; it pays to be the first into the market.
2. The Pennsylvania RR GG-1 electric locomotive. A beautiful Raymond Lowry styled design of which 130 odd were built in the PRR shops in the

1930's. They were so well built they remained in revenue service well into the 1980's. They had power to spare, the suspension kept them on the rails at speeds up the 100 mph. A signature locomotive on the electrified PRR trackage.

1. The EMD GP-7. Prototypical road switcher, a type that became so popular that in time it completely replaced the "covered wagon" F units. The original GP 7 has decendents still in production. The road switcher abandoned the stylish streamlined look of the F units for a cab with vision fore and aft, allowing it's use as a switcher, and allowing it operate in either direction.

David Starr

or punters, or wankers, or . . .

Stop that right now Mark!!!

That's better. ;-)