Weathering Model Steam Locos

mark_newton wrote:


Sorry Mark, I have to disagree with you on that one.
My best example was the freshly painted N&W #611 or #1218. These bests were deep black and looked like they were waxed and polished. They were hard to photograph, as mostly you just had black and highlights. And those highlights were EVERY color, depending on their surroundings, but mostly BLUE, from the sky.
Any 'highlight', as from a shiny surface, exhibits whatever color of light it's reflecting. Outdoors, in the daytime, this will almost always be either the blue of the sky or the yellow-green of the Sun. Highlights are almost NEVER 'white'.
Likewise, outdoors, in the sunny daytime, common shadows (formed by the Sun) are normally deep BLUE, as the only 'fill' light available to them is from the sky. Such 'shallow' shadows can only be 'neutral gray' when ALL light sources in the area are pure WHITE, which is RARELY the case.
Only a truly DEEP shadow (say, the inside of a deep hole), is nearly black, as it receives almost no light of any color.
At night, with typical artificial lighting of several colors, shadows can be ANY color, but will normally have SOME explicit color, though normally dark. The shadow will often be the opposite in color of whatever light is forming it.
Experiment: Set up two lights, one red, one green, a ways apart, in a lightly painted (preferably white) room, or just a large box. Turn off all other lights in the area. The overall illumination, a mixture of red and green light, will now approximate being white. Place a sizable solid object in the area and observe the shadows produced by the two lamps. The shadow produced by the green lamp will be red, and the shadow produced by the red lamp will be green. Each shadow receives ONLY the light from the OPPOSITE lamp.
Highlights and shadow normally have distinctive COLOR, often quite strongly so. The untrained eye usually 'ignores' such effects, but they show up vividly in many photographs. The eye is a HORRIBLY inaccurate judge of either color or relative intensity.
Dan Mitchell ==========P.S. ... even the two N&W 'show' locomotives mentioned, perhaps the best presented steamers I've ever seen, recently painted and well cared for, still showed LOTS of subtle 'weathering'. This included mineral streaks, dust, soot, oil and grease leaks, condensation marks on the tender, and accumulated road grime. At every stop (frequently) they'd keep wiping such imperfections off, and five miles down the road they's mostly be back again.

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[ Snip ]

Classic perceptual experiment: Brightly light a lump of coal and look at it through a hole in a white foreground not as well lit. The coal will be white. Take away the foreground and the coal will be black.
Our perceptions of color, and practically everything else, are influenced by context and by what we expect to see. While color pictures may not be perfect, they are often a better representation of reality than what our eyes see.
Steam locomotives were black, and we see them as black, no matter what color they are.
--
Bill Kaiser
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You guys can argue away all you like.
Personally, I'm satisfied with the vast majority of my weathering jobs and I plan to keep on doing the same thing. I look at photographs of Canadian steam, in colour and B&W, and try to emulate what I see there, not what some article in a magazine tells me to do.
It goes back to my credo of modelling based on the prototype, not what I read in model railroading magazines.
-- Cheers Roger T.
Home of the Great Eastern Railway http://www.highspeedplus.com/~rogertra /
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Roger T. wrote:

Maybe you should write an article or two for the magazines, eh?
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snipped-for-privacy@mtholyoke.edu wrote:

I know they were mostly PAINTED with 'black' paint, but they sure do **NOT** 'look' plain black to me!
Dan Mitchell ==========> --

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On Wed, 05 Oct 2005 11:46:36 -0400, Wolf Kirchmeir

Kodachrome does lean toward Red/Yellow, just as E4/6 process tends toward green/blue. People who shot steam with K10, K25, K64 still have slides. Pity the poor guys who entrusted their images to early Ektachrome, Anscochrome, Agfachrome etc. they now have weird colour shifts, or blank celluloid.

Lived eight blocks from Calder (now Macmillan) Yard & dad worked for CN.

--

"I believe there are more instances of the abridgement
of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent
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Mountain Goat wrote:

[...]I lived a block from

Used to take ETS up there, and wander round taking photos - I prefer CN over CP. Pity that ETS dropped their cream and red colour scheme.
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Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
> IMO, Pryke's weathering looks real enough for the era and locale he > has chosen.
And in my opinion, while the colours he uses may be appropriate for the era and locale, the weathering patterns don't look real - he is simply aping what other modellers have done before him.
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Wolf Kirchmeir wrote:
> Not even a freshly-painted loco looked black: that shiny fresh paint > reflected a lot of blue from the sky, you see.
No, I don't see. In the last seven years I've been involved with the repainting of five actual steam locomotives in gloss black. *All* looked black on completion, *none* noticeably reflected blue from the sky when rolled outside on a sunny summer's day.
What, if any, evidence do you have that they do? Apart from photographs, which you've conclusively demonstrated do not give an accurate rendering of the actual colour?
> OP Mark Newton faults Pryke for not weathering locos to look like the > colour pictures in the books he refers to. Very few of those > pictures show the actual colours: trust me, I lived a block from the > CPR's loco depot in Strathcona (South Edmonton) in the 50s, and saw a > lot of actual steam locos.
So have I, and a *lot* more recently than the 1950s. And unlike you, I've worked on them on a daily basis, and have gotten to know how and why they weather as they do. I'm bitterly regretting not having made it absolutely clear in my original post that I was referring to unrealistic *patterns* of weathering, and not just the colours, which to my mind are an secondary issue.
Pryke's weathering includes the usual rust marks on the rear sides of the tender, explained away as being caused by overflowing water. And yet I've never seen a photograph showing this as frequently portrayed by modllers - nor would I expect to.
Almost all US locos had drains on the tender deck, to prevent water pooling there. Othe roads, like the NKP for example, had flush decks to shed the water.
Modellers OTOH, who have never seen the top of a real tender deck, just assume that overflow water would collect there, and weather accordingly.
Almost all of the other assumptions made in the Mr. Pryke's article about the way steam loco weathering patterns develop are based on similar ignorance.
> When railroads took pride in the appearance of their rolling stock, > locos were washed quite often, so that the weathering patterns were > quite different. A loco that rarely if ever got washed would develop > all kinds of rust spots and patches, as well those infamous white > deposits from water spills
Infamous?, No just another modellers' fantasy. But since you're so sure of yourself, feel free to put up an example of a steam loco with garish white streaks emanating from the "leaking" washout plugs...
> and condensing steam [snip]
LOL! Now you're really displaying your ignorance, Wolf.
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And in the case of the engines Mark has painted, a different paint from what was used in the 1950's, hence a different colour.

Mark has a long track record of painting railway equipment in incorrect colour schemes.
--
Terry Flynn


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Terry Flynn wrote:
>>>>> Not even a freshly-painted loco looked black: that shiny >>>>> fresh paint reflected a lot of blue from the sky, you see. >> >>>> What, if any, evidence do you have that they do? Apart from >>>> photographs, which you've conclusively demonstrated do not give >>>> an accurate rendering of the actual colour? >>> >>> Well, memories, actually. Maybe your locos are painted >>> satin-gloss rather than high gloss. >> >> No, they've all been high-gloss, at least to start with. >> > And in the case of the engines Mark has painted, a different paint > from what was used in the 1950's, hence a different colour.
Is that right, old fruit? You're now claiming to know what paint was specified for various loco repaints that you had absolutely no involvement with? So tell me old fruit, what paint did I use?
>>>> I'm bitterly regretting not having made it absolutely clear in >>>> my original post that I was referring to unrealistic *patterns* >>>> of weathering, and not just the colours, which to my mind are >>>> an secondary issue.
> Mark has a long track record of painting railway equipment in > incorrect colour schemes.
Is that right, old fruit? You're claiming that I - a person you have repeatedly described as a broom-pusher and weekend fireman - have the final say on the choice of colour schemes on preserved stock owned by the NSW government? What an influential broom-pusher I must be, eh?
You *really* are full of it, old fruit. But tell me, what railway equipment have I painted in incorrect colours?
All the best,
Mark.
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Bad luck Mark, your repainted preserved locomotives weather nothing like steam era locomotives, because the paint chemical formula's have changed. There is no link between your full size NSW tourist locomotive painting and weathered US steam era locomotives other than in your mind.

Anthing to do with 3801 limited expert. Still waiting to see your US models "correctly weathered". Stick to the thread subject you started.
--
Terry Flynn


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Terry "OPIUM" Flynn wrote:

Better still why dont you stop responding to Marks posts. I thought that you said that you were not going to respond to anything that Mark posts in these forums. You cant help yourself can you.
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like
changed.
you
these
I guess he can't.
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like
changed.
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Check your facts before posting Greg. I never said such a thing. Another biased post from yourself defending the indefensible foul mouthed bully . The fact is Mark Newton on at least 3 occasions stated he would not respond to my posts. You can't trust any thing he says. Why not complain about Mark Newton the foul mouthed bully. I am still waiting to see if Mark the expert bully has ever weathered a model. He is good at criticising other peoples modelling efforts, (NSW AMRA club layout, John Pryke's models and my models), yet has nothing better to show. And while were here, where are your examples of weathered locomotives Greg, or does your daddy do all your model building and painting.
--
Terry Flynn


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Terry "Tall Poppy" Flynn wrote:

Biased Post = One that does not agree with Flynn.

The fact is that you had decided to respond to Rings posts in this thread. Don't try to re-write history dude.

I didn't read Marks comments on the AMRA layout as a criticism, you did!!

What has my old man got to do with this?? Are you loosing the arguement opium.
I do 1.5" to the foot these days. So I dont have to put up with gits like you. If you want to have a look at the loco I am doing it is at http://www.locogear.com But then again it would be an inferior, boring prototype in your eyes.
--
Spam Bait

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Greg Rudd wrote:
> Terry "Tall Poppy" Flynn wrote:
>> I am still waiting to see if Mark the expert bully has ever >> weathered a model. He is good at criticising other peoples >> modelling efforts, (NSW AMRA club layout, John Pryke's models and >> my models), yet has nothing better to show. > > I didn't read Marks comments on the AMRA layout as a criticism, you > did!!
Greg, for once Flynn has got something right, as hard to believe as that may be. My comments about the AMRA HO layout *were* intended as a criticism. It's something straight out of the 1950s.
No doubt Flynn had a hand in designing it's antedeluvian electrical system...
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mark_newton wrote:

Yeah I always have thought AMRA was a bit old fashioned in its thinking. I note the discussion on the use of PLC's in dc control and after programing the things You could still reach a valid conclusion that a carrier control based system would be far simpler in implementation than a combined plc/dc. I know of one person ( recovering from brain surgery) who was going to use dc but is now going dcc simply becase it it is simpler in operation and there is less wiring involved.

More likely than not.
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like
arm
from
Who gives a f#ck what Terry thinks, you just keep on building that Shay mate, just make sure Im there when it makes its trial run.
Nathan
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