Where do you have your layout?

Wow, 700 sq feet. Assuming that's a building close to square in configuration, you've got 4 walls each about 26 feet long to work with.

Why not start with an 18" to 24" shelf layout along one of the shorter walls (if it isn't a square building)? That'll give easy access and something to start with. You can then quickly and easily extend the track plan so it follows a smaller shelf around the rest of the building walls (say on a 6" shelf which could also accomodate a passing siding or two). The 6" shelf need not even have scenery.

Doing the 6" shelf on the other 3 walls allows you to later easily remove sections of the 6" shelf and then add additional 18" to 24" shelf sections (If you ever wanted to) and, if you never did, you'd still have a pretty large loop to run trains around on while focusing your layout building on that first wall section.

There's no model rule that sez you have to scenic every foot of a layout or have extensive trackwork everywhere.

The other enjoyment factor that I seem to resonate with and I think many others do also is having that big day when we drive that "golden spike" on the layout to complete a loop of operable track to run trains on...regardless of how we individually think about actual operating in any prototypical manner.

The only difference between men and boys is the price of the toys!

Cheers, Bill S.

128 foot by 24 foot club layout.

After 20 + years in the club I'll never do a home layout again.

For N-scale, a 4 x 8 is a big undertaking for a 1st layout..

When I built layouts at home before the club I tried to do "too large" and kicked myself many times. While articals and books on "how to" are wonderful, theres nothing like learning hands on. As you perfect your skills one tends to look back at what they did just a year or two ago and think,,,,,,time tio rip that out and redo it.

Remember, even John Allen started small................

( by the way, we are in HO, I started in S then many years in HO before going to N back in the late 60's through early 80's. I enjoy HO much more than N scale just because it's me. I've seen many wonderful things done in N scale that would just drive me nuts. )

No, it's about 16' x 44'. There's a diagram and some rough drafts on the link below, along with a list of Givens & Druthers. Since this is a free Geocities page there's a daily download maximum in case anyone gets aq "Page not available" error. The shape of the room coupled with what I would like to do is what has given me fits. One Given is that I don't want to build benchwork along the wall with the door and windows. Leaving that as aisle space further narrows the usable area to 13' or 14' wide. Wanting to run my big articulateds requires broad curves, so the loops chew up enormous amounts of space. I don't want to go multi-deck; having seen and operated on some I don't like them. I have no problems with a single deck layout which criss crosses itself on several levels.

Rick Jones wrote: [...]

Well, it;'s not as bad as all that, since the aisle doesn't have to be

2-2-2/3 feet all along the lenfgth of that wall. Consider a multi-lobed layout: then you only have to worry about the narrowets aisle width at the ends of the lobes. At these locations, 2-1/2 ft is plenty, because most of the traffic will occur on either side of that narrowest spot. (I wouldn't go to 2ft, since you will inevitably increase in girth as you age, and several of your friends are bound to find 2ft an awkward squeeze now.)

So that leaves a space 13-1/2ft by 44ft. Just right for a multi-lobed mainline arrangement. Why multi-lobed rather than some sort of doughnut? Because you really don't want to have to duck under the layout to get inside it. Trust me.

For your articulated engines and long passenger trains, try a minimum radius of 4ft, and a square of 4-1/2 ft. Since a lobe takes a minimum of six squares (3 long by 2 wide), the minimum size of a lobe would be

13.5ft x 9ft. Which just fits across your space. H'm, looks promising.

Let's mull over an elongated 'E' with the above specs. Three lobes take up 27ft of the 44ft available. Be generous with the aisles between, say

4ft. The two aisle at four feet adds 8ft, for a minimum space of 35 ft by 13.5 feet. That leaves room for a nice long yard (4ft + 11ft = 13ft!) between two of the lobes, with the added plus of space for a good sized lounge there. Nice! If you can bring yourself to squeeze the minimum radius down to 42" or even 36", you will have plenty of flexibility in track arrangements around the lobes.

There's room in this kind of layout for building a second level along the backdrop, within easy reach from the front. A 1-1/2 turn helix on each end lobe, with most of one turn of the helix out in the open (maybe on a curving side-hill trestle...), would lift the second level to 9" at

2%, and 13.5" at 3%, not bad. The second level could be used to increase the length of run, or for a branch line. Staging is easily accommodated under the lobes, and keep in mind that staging tracks can be on tighter radii, since the only consideration is operating reliability - 36" radius is plenty.

Tricky part: building access to the interior of the lobes, unless you are very disciplined about keeping all track within 24" to 30" of the layout edge.

One thing to firmly keep in mind: what makes a layout a burden rather than a pleasure is not size but complexity. Enlarging a small layout to fit a larger space will give you a more satisfying, and much easier to maintain, layout than filling that larger space with track to the same density as is done on a smaller layout. Operational complexity (ie, satisfaction) is achieved not by many passing and/or switching points, but by adequate staging, so that a sufficient number of trains pass through the visible part of the layout.

One final thought: I haven't checked your website, so I don't where the door is. But if the location of the door interferes with an 'E', or any other scheme you come up with, move the door. There's no reason to put up with a door in the wrong place.

HTH&GL

[of his frustration trying to design a layout]

OK, I've looked at your website, and your sketch plans, and I have a few comments. First, no doughnut (but your sketches show you don't treally want one, eh?)

a1) Your Givens and Druthers are not clear enough on the type of operation you envisage, hence there is no guide to the type of general mainline arrangement that will work for you. Interpreting your specs, it looks like you want a division yard, with mainline trains dispatched E/W, plus through trains with crew changes, plus one or more switching turns in each direction per operating "day." Is that right?

a2) Your Gs & Ds don't indicate how important a place to show off your articulated locos is - ie, do you want a nice large loco servicing area?

b) Sketches 7 and 8 are promising, but there is insufficient aisle space along the region where presumably a division yard will be located.

c) An elongated 'C", with the two lobes at the end arranged on the window side looks like the best arrangment, assuming I interpret your operating scheme correctly. If you locate the end lobes away from the end and side walls, you can put the staging yards there - out in the open from the staging yard operator's standpoint, but hidden from the rest of the layout. Since the staging yard operator needs only enough space to get into that semi-hidden area, a 30" aisle is adequate, leaving you with a max width of 13.5ft, and a maximum length of 39ft.

d) Aisles where operators will be passing each other should be at least four feet (120cm) wide. 40" (1m) may seem adequate, but it gets to be aggravating to have to do the sideways shuffle every time you pass a buddy.

e) Your sketches suggest an attempt to cram a lot of track into the available space. I strongly suggest you resist that urge.

f) It's best for a large layout space to find the best arrangement for the mainline plus main yard(s plus passing tracks plus staging, and design switching loactions etc in detail as you build them.

g) I'd leave space at one end or in the middle for a crew/visitor lounge. That IMO is more important than more track.

h) If necessary, "temporarily" close up the two end windows. Windows just let in heat, anyhow.

HTH&GL

A 13 x 15 foot area in the basement. It is carpeted & finished on the ceiling and finished on three sides (the fourth is open to the laundry/storage/etc.)

Unfortunately right now in my mind. I've moved a lot in the past few years and haven't got room for one... That is until i decided to make a micro or shelf layout out of pink insulating foam... More on this later...

If Mike thinks any bigger - never mind - CLEAR THE ISLES...

128' X 24'?? wow, i wouldn't even know where to begin, am having enoug

trouble with a 60" X 30" N scale layout. One day i will lay a sectio of track :

-- Ro

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this thread:

I built a 12' X 24' foot building seperate from the house, finished on the inside, carpeted and air conditioned with heat. Building was completed Aug this year. I am currently building a version of the Moth Lake and Mount Ahab RR. Layout is 12' X 18' with the first 6 feet for train workshop area and entry. Approx 50% of the track is laid.

Bill Cabot, Arkansas

In a finished upstairs room in a 1.5 story home. The low roof causes the upper outside walls to be sloped, with about a 4' vertical sidewall. The train layout 'case' sets against the sidewall (the layout is fully enclosed, with a solid top and sliding plex doors for viewing and access). This gives a track height of only about 36" above the floor. It's a 'setting down' layout ... the operators all set in roll-about office chairs.

Access is only somewhat limited by the enclosure, which is maximum of

30" deep (from the back wall), usually less. Interior height is about 15", with the plex doors being about 12" high. The effect is of an enclosed diorama. The enclosure keeps out perhaps 95% of the dust, and almost totally eliminates damage to the layout between running sessions. Since my scenery is about 90% complete, and highly detailed, this is MUCH appreciated.

Overall, it works out very well. There are some trade-offs, but I'd definitely use the same basic design again.

Dan Mitchell ============

Yes, a single large, yard connected via a continuous loop double track main so that this one yard represents the two terminals at each end of a division. There's not enough space to do two separate yards capable of building/tearing down 20+ car trains, which is the size necessary to look at least somewhat reasonable behind a large articulated. Arrival/departure tracks should be long enough to handle the theoretical longest train I might build: ATSF 2-10-10-2 plus

20-something 40-50 foot cars plus caboose. I estimate the length at about 15 feet. The adjacent passenger station tracks would need to be around 12 feet to handle the Walthers Super Chief set with a PA1-PB1-PB1-PA1 engine set. (I know it's not prototypical but I like the way it looks.)

Yes, a full engine facility with 130' turntable. I have the South River Modelworks stone roundhouse kit to use here.

I don't much care for staging. I know it's one of The Big Things these days but I like my trains out where I can see them. I'd put a couple of interchange tracks off the yard somewhere to represent someplace beyond the layout and change out the cars there between sessions. I tend to be a loner and my view of operations is primarily with me running by myself. That's one reason for the double track mainline loops

- set up one train eastbound and one train westbound and I operate the local. I also envision visitors as more likely to be non-MR friends so that sort of display running works out there too.

As mentioned above, if I'm operating by myself 90% of the time it won't matter all that much.

That's something I've wondered as I've worked on plans using CadRail. A lot of the time stuff looks like it's taking up way more space on the computer than I'd expect if I were to lay out some flex track on a board. Other than the engine terminal and yard, I never got to the point with any of my attempts to put in sidings for towns and industries.

If I ever have a crew, the crew lounge will be in the house. I'd rather use the space to lengthen the mainline run so that it looks like a train is taking a reasonable length of time to go between division points.

```````` I'd be worried about serious sun fading, especially the scenery, and particularly early in the morning!

I'm actually putting foam insulation and sealing around the edges on every basement window since they'll be behind the backdrop walls.

"Paul - The CB&Q Guy" (Modeling 1960's In HO.)

Have you checked fire code about basement egress?

Outside. I have about 4 acres of space available, and the wisdom not to try to fill the space with track. The scenery was already there, so I didn't have to build it. The lighting is good when the sun is out. Mosquitos can be fierce sometimes.

Dust isn't a problem; the rain washes it away. I did have a large tree limb fall and smash about half of my 16' wooden trestle this summer though. Right now the track is buried under leaves. They'll stay till it's warm enough to be outside comfortably again in the spring.

Are your G & D's in a priority order? Consider that you probably can't build out and do all of them at once. That being so, then what is you priority of each. Ranking them in a priority order will help you determine how to start and you may even find at some interim state of buildout that you content with the layout as far as it has been completed.

Cheers, Bill S. CEO Captree Central