Hornby Railroad Black 5



What about a "radial truck" as used on the GWR 56xx and 66xx class 0-6-2Ts? This was not a small separate frame pivoted from the mainframe, but fif allow independent sideways movement.
--
Jane



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The L&YR called the end axles of it's 2-4-2T "radial axles". The axle boxes had curved fore and aft outer edges and slid between the axle box irons. (sorry to keep returning to that loco as my example but I'm building one from scratch :-)
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On Tue, 29 Dec 2009 14:00:43 +1300, "Greg.Procter"

IIRC it was carried on Cartazzi slides within axleboxes fixed to the rear frames, rather than any form of pivoted truck. The W1 had both, of course...
Tim
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[ re the trailing carrying axle of Gresely Pacifics ]
: : IIRC it was carried on Cartazzi slides within axleboxes fixed to the : rear frames, rather than any form of pivoted truck. The W1 had both, : of course... :
AIUI it's still called a truck as it's not a fixed (ridged) axle.
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On Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:32:10 +1300, Jerry

We're getting somewhat pedantic here, but a "truck" is a pivoted frame holding a carrying axle. Presumably the Cartazzi slides provide a notional pivot point ahead of the carrying axle so causing it to behave as a truck. We might have to agree to differ.
Regards, Greg.P.
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: > : > [ re the trailing carrying axle of Gresely Pacifics ] : > : > : : > : IIRC it was carried on Cartazzi slides within axleboxes fixed : > to the : > : rear frames, rather than any form of pivoted truck. The W1 had : > both, : > : of course... : > : : > : > AIUI it's still called a truck as it's not a fixed (ridged) axle. : > : : We're getting somewhat pedantic here, but a "truck" is a pivoted : frame holding a carrying axle. Presumably the Cartazzi slides : provide a notional pivot point ahead of the carrying axle : so causing it to behave as a truck.
But that is the point, it does allow the said trailing axle to 'pivot', just not in the most usual way, and in any case 'pivoting' is the least important aspect for any leading or trailing truck on a locomotive, in fact the last thing they actually should to do is 'pivot', once they are forced to do that they have not done their primary (design) task well or at all...
: We might have to agree to differ. :
No, you just need to find a clue!
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On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 23:21:23 +1300, Jerry

Jerry:- I have been scratch-building model locos since 1963. Kit building commercially since about 1980. My major modelling theme has been locos running on mountainous routes. I'm a member of several railway presevation groups. I've been involved in the restoration of a number of steam locos. A close aquaintance was the mechanical engineer for NZR in the last days of steam through the early/middle Diesel years.
I don't know everything, but you need to think hard before accusing me of knowing nothing.
Regards, Greg.P.
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<snip> : : I don't know everything, but you need to think hard before : accusing me of knowing nothing. :
Until I see proof that you know anything more than how to sweep up and make tea I will carry on holding my opinion...
Sorry to say that in my time in railway preservation, in my time in model engineering, in my time in model railways and in my professional career I have come across plenty of arrogant idiots like you, those that like to have it believed that they know all when in reality they know nothing, they can sure talk a good story but when it comes down to hard facts and logic their true worthlessness comes flying into the room to join them...
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On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 23:53:16 +1300, Jerry

I was the one quoting a long ago book by an established author - you're the one claiming to be in possession of "facts" in regards to a design where no "facts" regarding the design were recorded. That puts _you_ firmly in the "plenty of arrogant idiots

Regards, Greg.P.
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: : I was the one quoting a book by an established author -
That you have failed/refuse to cite....
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On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 23:47:59 +1300, Jerry

I've failed so far - it's the Christmas/New Year season and mid-summer. I haven't had time to re-read my library.
Greg.P.
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wrote:

Oh, the irony.
Are you lying about the books, too? Or do you reserve that epithet for others you disagree with.
MBQ
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wrote:

Looking around the world there are numerous locos that refuse to fit into the normal notation. - Powered tenders conuse the issue. - The Bavarians built an Atlantic with a booster axle built into the leading bogie. The booster axle was normally held clear of the rails by upward operating springs but was pressed down by small steam cylinders when powered. Wheel arrangement 4-4-2 or (2-2-2)-4-2 depending on location.
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: > : >> The latest Princess Coronations appear to have the fixed : > rear bogie. : > : >> : > : >> John. : > : > Pedantry and semantics demand that I tell you that 'two : > wheels do not a : > : > bogie make' - this two wheeled trailing supporter of many a : > firebox is : > : > called a 'pony truck'. We may have to come up with a revised : > name now : > : > that : > : > it doesn't actually swivel. Suggestions? : > : : > : It's a "fixed carrying axle". : > : : > : > Surely that would make the loco a "4-6-2-0", think about it... : > : : No. <snip>
Yes, as the loco in question needs a trailing truck of some description and not just a fixed axle (thus is would be missing it and would behave like a poorly designed 4-8-0), you obviously don't understand what a trailing truck does, it's not just a weight carrying axle - take away the suggestion of the axle being *fixed* and you are half way to a suitable name...
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On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 10:29:52 +1300, Jerry

Compared to European 4-6-2s, British 4-6-2s did act like poorly designed 4-8-0s (without the rear axle being powered) because the trailing axle was not equalized and would therefore take more than it's share of weight available for traction in situations such as on the vertical curve into a gradient.
If a x-x-2 loco has the trailing axleboxes mounted on the rigid mainframe(sprung obviously) then the axle is _not_ on a truck. I could be wrong, but I understand the term for that is a rigid or fixed axle.
If the Gresly etc trailing axles were allowed free sideplay, then they were simple carrying axles with no other function.
Greg.P.
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: > : > : >> The latest Princess Coronations appear to have the fixed : > : > rear bogie. : > : > : >> : > : > : >> John. : > : > : > Pedantry and semantics demand that I tell you that 'two : > : > wheels do not a : > : > : > bogie make' - this two wheeled trailing supporter of many : > a : > : > firebox is : > : > : > called a 'pony truck'. We may have to come up with a : > revised : > : > name now : > : > : > that : > : > : > it doesn't actually swivel. Suggestions? : > : > : : > : > : It's a "fixed carrying axle". : > : > : : > : > : > : > Surely that would make the loco a "4-6-2-0", think about : > it... : > : > : > : : > : No. <snip> : > : > Yes, as the loco in question needs a trailing truck of some : > description and not just a fixed axle (thus is would be missing : > it and would behave like a poorly designed 4-8-0), you obviously : > don't understand what a trailing truck does, it's not just a : > weight carrying axle - take away the suggestion of the axle being : > *fixed* and you are half way to a suitable name... : > : : Compared to European 4-6-2s, British 4-6-2s did act like poorly : designed 4-8-0s (without the rear axle being powered) because : the trailing axle was not equalized and would therefore take : more than it's share of weight available for traction in situations : such as on the vertical curve into a gradient.
Gradients have f*ck all to do with it....
: : If a x-x-2 loco has the trailing axleboxes mounted on the rigid : mainframe(sprung obviously) then the axle is _not_ on a truck. : I could be wrong, but I understand the term for that is a rigid : or fixed axle.
....that is not what a trailing truck does (nor do they just carry locomotive weight), if that is all that was required there would be on need of a trailing truck!
: : If the Gresly etc trailing axles were allowed free sideplay, then : they were simple carrying axles with no other function. :
Whhhooooossssshhhhhh..........
You sure are clueless. :~(
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On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 12:47:04 +1300, Jerry

You appear to have a unwarrented negative turn of phrase. Imagine your (0-6-2) loco on a vertical curve between level and a steady upward gradient: - The leading driving axle and the trailing carrying axle on an unsprung loco would be on the rails while the two inner axles would be clear of the rails. ie, those two axles would be carrying the weight normally carried by four. - add springing: the two outer axles would compress their springs. The two inner axles would extend their springs which would mean they actually carried very little weight - the outer axles carry the majority. - add equalization: The load is now carried equally by all four axles. The Gresleys didn't have equalization on the rear carrying axle - loop back to the second scenario where the weight is carried mainly on the outer axles - one of which is a carrying axle. Conclusion: Gradients (or more specifically changes in gradient) have everything to do with it.

Carrying axles generally have to purposes: - carrying weight. - guiding the loco. That second use is obviously secondary as not all locos have them.

Again, you demonstrate a negativeness without purpose.
Regards, Greg.P. NZ
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"Alistair Wright" wrote

What pees me off by it, is the fact that Bachmann have got around the problem with their Peppercorn A1 without having to resort to a fixed rear pony (actually a Bissell) truck & flangeless wheelset.
John.
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Hello
Is the Black 5 with sound any better?
Gordon
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"selfgk" wrote

Eh? The Black 5 doesn't have a rear pony or bogie.
John.
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