My money pit.

Well you have more or less repeated the mistake I made when I built my first loft layout. Chipboard on 2 by 4s is now very passe for baseboards. Unless your loft is insulated and heated (and cooled in summer) you will have problems where each board meets its neighbour. Sag will give you little humps at each joint and guarantee derailments. I can see it's too late now for you to change, but I haven't used that method of baseboard construction on any recent layout (and mine now lives in a downstairs air conditioned room). The thin ply geodetic system is far superior and will not deform as time goes by, and it has been described in detail many times in the model railway press. I am surprised that you did not know about it. It also permits a much easier variation in track height for having bridges, viaducts and the height of scenery generally. Plus the fact that it is much lighter and easier to handle if you need to turn bits upside down for wiring etc.

As for the trackwork I couldn't comment as my layout is an actual location and all the track was hand built to suit. You do seem to have a lot of very short sidings though, which is not very economical on turnouts.

Alistair Wright '5522' Models

I agree with the point about sidings, but you seem to have laid the track directly onto the board. Were you not considering any kind of underlay or ballast?

Hi Alistar,

Thanks for your feedback, I used the isulation board as it was profered as a cheap alternative to Sundeala, albeit slightly heavier and thicker. I have already noticed some slight warping in a couple of places, but to date only have one problem with delrailments and that is only one loco (Bachmann Crab) on one set of points (does it every time though) and this is nowhere near where the boards are warped. Ever other loco goes over the points okay. I was advised against using ply due to the noise, and with the amount of track I was laying it would have been expensive to lay cork strip under it all. As for having the tack at varying heights, I had originally intended to do this, but with the severe slope of the roof it would have meant encroaching out into the loft space too much. I agree with your comments about the length of the sidings, but I am a bit stuck for space, the wife is not too keen on an extension just for the model railway. Unfortunately, due to the height of the baseboards and the slope of the roof, the useable area of the main board is only about 10ft x 30" and the boards around the walls are about 18" wide, but again due to the slope I am limited to about 12" useable. I am toying with the idea of replacing the boards with 9mm (3/8")ply and using a 3mm (1/8") cork trackbed to take it up to the required height, If I do this, I will biscuit joint the edges of the boards to ensure that the edges stay level with each other. One good tip I have picked up on is "to not ballast for at least 6 months after first putting down your layout, so anychanges required are easier to make". I am thinking of putting in another bit of board at the front of the baseboard at the right hand side below the final loco siding butting up to the right hand side boards and installing a turntable, would this look stupid?

Thanks again for your comments, will think carefully about the points you have raised. Now just got to go and google "thin ply geodetic system".

Eddie "Alistair Wright" wrote in message news:dqifvj$6eu$ snipped-for-privacy@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

Hi,

I have laid the track directly onto the board, as it is insulation board it seems very quiet whilst running, so I did not see the requirement for a cork trackbed. Is this wrong?

I intend to ballast the track after a comprehensive running in period. Was going to ballast sooner, but it has been suggested that you should wait for a few months to identify any trackwork problems first (seems a good idea to me). After reading Alisters's post, I will wait until after the summer and see how the baseboards hold up to the heat.

Thanks for your thoughts,

MBQ

Thanks.

Like the ideas of my leaving the flat earth society, but the weight issue is not a problem. The layout will never be moved other than to dismantle or replace with a better one (not beyond the bounds of possibility). The fibre board itself is not very heavy, it fact it is considerably lighter than even 6mm mdf, my only concerns are for its longevity and possible tendencies to warp/buckle.

Due to the amount of track laid on the main board, if I substituted these with 12mm mdf it would weigh a hell of a lot more, although I am now investigating a means of removing the excess insulation board in situ (without destroying whats left) along the sides and rear boards to facilitate scenery structure.

Eddie.

That's a great site. I shall bookmark that.

Eddie, I have never seen a loft so tidy and empty ! (Or a carpet like that for years ! :-)

Looks good, see your on the ZTC 511 ?

Keep us all posted. Have a look at my Oakamoor link from the web below to see how I did it.

"Andy Sollis wrote

Corrr, he's right! ;-)

Flash sod having a carpet that's not threadbare in his railway room.

John.

Hi Andy,

Its easy really, its called "brush" in Photoshop. I used a large brush size and black paint and painted over all the s*1t. I have purchased 12 x 1 mtrs of black cotton which I will staple around the layout when I have completed some of the scenery. so I thought by using the "black paint" it would give a similar effect.

Reason for the cotton curtains is we store most of our family's Christmas presents in the loft, and small eyes would notice.

As to the carpet, I cannot take any credit for that, it was in the loft when we bought the house (and that was 15 years ago), Has had more use in the last four months than it has in the last 15 years though.

Eddie.

Eddie,

May I point out that I completely ruined a layout by using insulation board as a track bed ? It is __highly__ absorbent and if you do have any ideas of ballasting, I would forget it now and start again. If you really must use this awful stuff (Sundeala is just as bad and only suitable for what it is designed: picture boards), it is absolutely __critical__ that you seal it before any track is laid. The moment any liquid-based materials touch this stuff, it will warp at rates Captain Kirk would be proud of and you will find your track bed will be all over the place with dips and rises - a disaster for derailments.

Unfortunately, people make false economies and cut corners on costs with baseboards. They really are the foundation of any layout and should be built with the correct materials and correct sizes - it's like a house: build the wrong foundations and the house will never be right.

My suggestion would be to get rid of all the insulation board and replace it with 12mm ply and use cork floor tiles as the track bed. I did this on my layout (see

and 7 years later, there are no signs of warping - and this layout spent a year in storage in a Sydney garage where the temperature ranges from 0 degrees to over 40 degrees.

Graham Plowman

Hi Graham,

Many thanks for your thoughts, I do not think that to change the boards at the moment will actually be that difficult as the track is only lightly pinned into the insulation board.

And the thing that took the longest time was actually working out what was going where.

If I do change the boards, then I would be limited to 9mm ply with 3mm cork trackbed, as I have already cut the stems of the point motors, and that would be an additional expense if I have to replace them as well.

Eddie.

"Edward Bray" wrote in news:s_4zf.150965$ snipped-for-privacy@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk:

...

Absolutely, very, very good advice, whoever gave it initially.

As for the boards, my layout is in the garage with the wind whistling under the door, so far it's been +30 deg C (when laid) to -3 deg C with massive variations in humidity. No warping, no problems what so ever ... 2"x2" and

2"x'1" mades up most of the frame although I have now built shelves underneath with all sorts of salvage that all go to providing extra support ... and the top is MDF.

My theory is that if it's not going anywhere build it so you can tap dance on it. Your insulation board will be fine ... and if it's not you can easily rig up some extra bracing from underneath ... no sweat.

I'd agree with others though, your 'extra' sidings are wasted, you'll be able to park some engines on them and that's about it, shunting will be a mare.

"John Turner" wrote in news:dqjkf3$dcd$ snipped-for-privacy@newsreaderm1.core.theplanet.net:

*I* have a genuine imitation Persion rug in *my* garage (witha corner cut out around my work bench) :-)

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the support, was almost getting suicidal about the baseboards, have been up in the loft all evening trying to work out how difficult it will be to replace them.

It will be interesting to see how they hold up over the next few months, as it seems I have commited ali the c*ck ups together.

Insulation board as substrate, although I did paint all the top with 1-2 PVA/Water to stiffen it up (to stop me breaking the edges).

Soldered all the track joints together, although I did make the effort of staggering the joints (pain in the arse that was).

Built it all on the flat, thus limiting scenery options.

Sidings too short, although I have had a good time just shunting trucks from one siding to another with one of the Class 08s, during which I have a train running around the branch line and one up goods and one down passanger on the main lines.

Oh well, it can't be said that I haven't enjoyed building my layout, so if I have to do it again, so be it.

"The person who never made a mistake, never made anything."

Eddie.

on it. Your insulation board will be fine ... and if it's not you can easily rig up some extra bracing from underneath ... no sweat.

Don't agree at all. The warping experienced by insulation board is not just lateral curling. It bubbles and expands - that is how I destroyed a layout. The fact that it has already been sealed with a water-based solution means that the damage has already been done - and Eddie has already intimated the first signs of this. Bracing won't solve the problem of the thickness of the material expanding and creating humps and dips in the trackbed. It really is awful stuff and should not be used as a substrate for model railways. I agree that 9mm ply would be OK.

Graham Plowman

"Chris Wilson" wrote

*I* have a genuine imitation Persion rug in *my* garage (witha corner cut out around my work bench) :-)

Chris Wilson

I've a car AND a 2 model railways in mine (Both packed up and the car needs washing !)

:-))

Andy

"Edward Bray" wrote

I have purchased 12 x 1 mtrs of black cotton which I will staple around the layout when I have completed some of the scenery. Eddie.

:-( I can't do that due to how the rafters are set up - sort of a /\_/\ shape, so I added to it and made it A_A and the railway rund between the A's.

Still, at least I can put it in the loft ! I should be grateful ! (Thank you Lisa!)

Andy

wrote

Bracing won't solve the problem of the thickness of the material expanding and creating humps and dips in the trackbed. Graham Plowman

But to some, this is portraying the prototype ? Not all rail routes are "dead flat" ! So long as it doesn't cause derailments, I find it acceptable and a little more to realism.

Andy