I'll grant that it's cheaper. Define simpler, for all values of station, including Kings Cross ;-).
A simple staging yard to station could be done in DCC with two wires (yes, I know it's better to tun a bus with multiple droppers but it can be done). As soon as you want to hold locos in sidings or at the end of platforms with DC you need section switches and wiring back to the switch panel. How is that simpler?
MBQ
Well Digtrax and Lenz decoders I first bought in 1998 when I started with a Digitrax system are still working fine. Of course there have been refinements since and the price has come as well.
I would have thought the difference between wiring a bus or a few switches on a simple layout is pretty minimal, and certainly a *lot* cheaper. The main problem with DCC, as I found out expensively, on an end to end layout is getting confused when trying to run more than one engine at a time and gravity intervenes, the Big Red Button not being easily reachable. Ok, so one could have switched dead sections at the ends of tracks, but that rather defeats the object. When the layout is "circular" DCC wins hand-down though, no question. Again, on a typical end to end layout, "prototype" operation is more easily (and arguably more realistically) attainable with traditonal wiring, as sections can be integrated with signals (either real, imagnary, or elctrically) to prevent foul moves (unless handing out Form 1's is part of the fun!). Obviously this could be done with DCC, but the costs start escalating rapidly.
As ever, it's horses for courses. The O gauge layout I'm embarking on is end to end (well, end-middle-end really) and I'll be using DCC, but only because the whole project is geared up to getting as much pointwork in as realistcally (in both senses) feasible making it a total nightmare to wire - were it a more traditional layout I'd not bother.
Richard
a: you don't need DCC specific turnouts - Peco from the box are fine. b: you don't need those decoders. c: you don't need to read and understand huge manuals which are written in incomprehensible mock-English. d: when your favourite loco stops/only runs at full speed you can fix it yourself. e: money.
My station to fiddle yard layout is of the "one loco in steam" type and the fiddle yard isolates 5/6 trains and 2 extra locos through the Peco turnouts electrical switching and a four Peco add-on point motor switches. Two of those are there to control routes through the three way turnout and two more allow the two reverse direction head-shunts to be powered for swapping locos. The point motors are there because at home the boards become a part of my computer controlled routing system. I've added a Trix EMS controller so the station shunter can still run when a train arrives, so I suppose I'll have to add full signalling next.
No no no!
Simpler where one runs one loco at a time! Simpler when one runs one loco per track at a time. Even a double track main-line with multi-track/platform station remains simpler. Once you start trying to link multiple cabs to more complex stations the wiring complication expands expotentially.
So, if you're trying to run 4 or 5 trains at the same time on a 6' x 4' layout cab control isn't going to work because there isn't time for all the switch throwing - use DCC. If you're trying to run four main-lines into a ten track terminus then cab control switching will get totally beyond reason - Use DCC.
I use Peco's turnouts with rail current switching functions.
My station - staging yard layout has: Mainline and platform loop, loco coaling track, three private industry sidings and two yard sidings, one with a switch-back track. Fiddle yard goes from entry track through a three way and two turnouts to create a 5 parallel track plus two head-shunts for exchanging locos. The long center fiddle yard track is divided half-way so two railcars can use it, requiring 'one' isolating switch. The switch-back siding has a Peco point motor switch so that the switch-back is powered when the main-line turnout is set to the siding and the switch-back turnout is set to the switch-back. I have divided the loco coaling road into two with a single section switch so I can park two locos.
So, the station board could have up to seven locos and the fiddle yard eight locos = total ten at any time, with only _two_ section switches. Without the section switches that would be six and seven locos = eight total.
Given the whole set-up is only 2.4m long by 450mm wide (fiddle-yard
300mm) how many locos do you want moving at any time? I could easily add a seperate controller for the fiddle-yard if I wanted faster turnarounds, but at exhibitions a little delay can be a positive!Regards, Greg.P.
14 speed steps vs 28 and 128 speed steps. Speed mapping. Acceleration and braking mapping. Lighting options. Sound. Consisting. (I hate that term)
Decoder features are such that I would have had to upgrade at least twice since I first bought DCC in the early 1990s.
Regards, Greg.P.
The _big_ killer of DCC for me was loco/decoder recognition on a hidden siding - station - staging yard layout. My locos have circa 2mm high numbers, which with my eyesight aren't readable at normal operating distances and most certainly aren't recognisable in the hidden staging yard. I have queued trains in my staging yard and to accidentally restart the second train in a queue would have disasterous effects. My staging yard needed conventional relay switched wiring whether DC or DCC and even then there is the potential of miscounting and finding the train rolling onto the visible main line is not the expected one. DC copes because I'm controlling the block, but DCC would require me to ID the loco and the controller driving it and recover.
They work just as well with DCC.
The manual for my system is really quite small (and my children have never read it at all).
How does the presence of a chip impede this? It is true that with DCC wheels still need cleaning, stock can still come off the rails ...
Mark Thornton
Ok, I've been discussing such things with yank friends - they demand turnouts designed specifically for DCC operation because the ultra short shorts between wheel-backs and the back of points is unacceptable to them.
You never set up your DCC system?
Is the problem mechanical or electronic? Has the electronics been masking a developing mechanical problem? Is the problem just dirt build-up? If the decoder is faulty most people can't fix them.
The decoder adds an extra layer over controller/wiring/track/current collection/loco mechanics which is not human intuitive.
Regards, Greg.P.
And theres an answer for that - use a control system that allows text, or query the decoder for its ID
Cheers, Simon
So youre advocating not buying DCC cos it will need upgrading in nn years. Lets refine that to you may wish to upgrade in nn yesrs. How far do you take this - shoes, car, food ....
It means you can have nn years fun for xx £.
Cheers, Simon
do you want to borrow my specs ?
Yes but I couldnt justify the cost then. However along came hornby with their fully featured system inc USB interface for £100 !
Cheers, Simon
Nope, its in the study next to a photo of Simon Kohler.
Cheers, Simon
You're suggesting adding yet another layer of complexity to the system!
I stopped (DCC) when I realized that I could achieve most of what I wanted with conventional control as against most of what I wanted through DCC for an excessive and ongoing outlay.
Analogue is cheaper.
No such thing as a free lunch, but I dont think using a controller that allows text or querying a decoder is a dramatic action. Non budget decoders and controllers have this functionality.
Cheers, Simon
"simon" wrote
It could have been worse, it could have been a picture of David Cameron or Tony Blair. ;-)
John.
"Greg Procter" wrote
So is bachelorhood & celebacy, but then cheap isn't always the best option! ;-)
John.
So how does it work in the practical sense? Does the loco have to be on an isolated block, or do I tap the CU on the shoulder and say "what's the address of that loco behind the green one by the loco shed?" After all, if I have 50 locos sitting on my layout in a single block, won't the CU give me 50 addresses back?
Regards, Greg.P.
After dealing to batchelorhood and celebacy, how could I have the cash to go with DCC???? ;-)
I guess my bottom line is that DCC is great for multiple one driver per one train, or a 6' x 4' double track roundy-roundy, but one driver per train generally adds up to one or two trains on my layouts which makes it pointless, and 6' x 4' roundy-roundy doesn't describe it either.
OTOH I'm taken with the concept of a two wire bus across baseboard joins to operate turnouts, but those decoders seem hellishly expensive!
Greg.P.
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