Well the lad has been on the internet and now 'knows about model railways' So, in a room ten foot square, in OO, we have the mountain section, the station(s), industrial sidings etc. It's all going to be DCC and he seems to think DCC can be programmed like a computer to run shuttle services. His missus picked up some Lilliput lane building for the town (which I seem to remember are to 1:144) Meeting him on Saturday in Liverpool to visit Hattons, dare not let him go in alone.
Any DCC stuff to avoid? I suspect we will be leaving with some kind of 'starter set' at the very least. As his time is limited he's a bit keen to get on.
DCC is probably a very good way to go if you are starting from scratch. Which system you use is very much an individual choice. You could try specialists such as DCC Supplies or Digitrains.
Be wary of some of the 'entry level' DCC systems as they will probably need to be upgraded if you are planning on doing something a bit more adventurous that a couple of locos on a simple oval of track - and that could cost more than getting a good system to start with.
I note that you are going to Hattons. They should be able to sort most of your needs, but I can't just let it go at that. Have you thought of going American? There's a whole wealth of rolling stock and information available. The National Model Railroad Association (NMRA) sets the standards that most of today's manufacturers work to. As a member you can also get a number of discounts from UK based supplies - whether you buy Us or British outline. Look at
If you are building a layout for the short term, with a double loop and a few sidings, why go to the extra bother and expense of DCC? He seems to underestimate the complexities of DCC.
But I've noticed that OO wheels are pretty close to NMRA profiles now. In fact the Bachmann GWR pannier and coaches that I received recently=20 all pass the NMRA wheel gauge. ;-)
Thanks chaps - Personally, given what he is up against, I would have gone for DC, but then I understand DC and have experience with it. He hasn't done anything with model railways for nearly 50 years, got into women and racing driving, the former is what's keeping him going, the latter is what's finishing him off. The last set he had was Dublo three rail.
I keep hearing Good Things about American outline, reasonable cost, reliability etc so I have been tinkering with what will fit with an eye to running either UK or US outline (basically a single track oval with a branch down to a lower level for a docks and some industry. The two-platform, double track 'station' being covered over to disguise that it is a four track fiddle yard - With a small shunter for the industrial/harbour branch he can run five locos without having an MPD.
Other than buildings the only thing to consider will be the uncoupling system, with tension lock the old sprung lift set into the track (I assume they still make them) makes life easy, although you cannot uncouple and push. I haven't worked with the Kadee type uncouplers, so that'll be interesting!
I think automatic uncoupling will be a big help, he isn't going to want to be jumping up to operate things and fiddle, I need to set it up so he can sit and control his own little universe in comfort.
It will be 'an oval' in essence as I suspect he's going to want to sit back and watch the train run, was considering a double track main line but that adds a lot to the complexity of the pointwork, costs more and takes up three inches of real estate (I am staying with a max baseboard depth of two feet as he will not be able to lean over much in the near future.
The door is in one corner, so a lifting section can be added for access cutting the corner. He should be up to the woodwork, he used to own his own fibreglass business, he's the lad that made all the bits and pieces for the French Disneyland (including the castle), and he made all the moulds for the job as well.
I'll take a look at the website suggested, I assume all DCC is now interoperable, so we might get a UK and US outline engine and play with those to see how he gets on (if we get a couple of goods wagons I can find out how Kadee works as well)
Meanwhile I'll make his missus a simple 3x4 N set for the buildings she bought, that I can do without thinking about it.
Am not sure that DCC is all that complicated, suspect people make it complicated. Buy a decent system that your friend is happy with in terms of the controls - yes can be the Hornby elite. Then buy DCC installed locos, tis often said that theyre not the best but for new steam locos they should be fine. If there are any problems then just send em back and let the shop deal with them. Now I'm not keen on Hattons for personal reasons, would only suggest you look at anything you buy before leaving the shop and get it tested as soon as possible. You would be far better off getting a tame supplier that knows you will be coming back for more if everything goes fine (as in if theres anything wrong they fix it one way or another). Depends where you live, but our John is one of the finest, cant fault him. Order tonight then will be in post tomorrow and arrive day after. Oh and whats with this foreign stuff, go for LMS steam every time. As a special get a sound Duchess to play with. Cheers, Simon
If that's the ultimate limit of the layout, then it's a no brainer. One of the budget DCC systems will be fine. The EZ costs no more than a decent DC controller.
If he wants to watch trains run onthe two loops whilst shunting the sidings then he'll need THREE DC controllers and you could easily justify the small extra cost of a better DCC controller such as the Dynamis.
Buy ready chipped locos from one of the box shifters to keep costs down.
Wiring will be far simpler - one power bus around the layout with droppers to both circuits and the siding, no section switches.
For such a small layout I'd stick to wire-in-tube point operation. It's easy to attach frog polarity switches, but unmodified Peco Electrofrog will be OK if you check the whell back-to-backs.
Automation isn't cheap in either DCC or DC. It can be made relatively less or relatively more expensive depending on equipment bought.
Whilst DCC is standardised at the track level (thus any decoder will work on any command station), there is a complete lack of standards behind that. So, there is no standard for feeding back train position, turnout settings, etc. which allows a system to automate things. You tend to be in systems which are proprietry to a certain extent (or at least tied to a handful of maker's systems), though there are options to mix systems if there is a computer in the middle which can talk different makers protocols at the same time.
DCC stuff to avoid if looking at a high degree of automation; anything lacking a computer interface to the wide range of software available (both free and paid-for software). So, that rules out: all DCC systems by Bachmann, Gaugemaster/MRC (their computer interface talks to their software only, nothing else), Hornby Select (the Elite may be worth considering, but its a long way down my ranking list of DCC systems). I'd be looking at the DCC specialist makers; Digitrax, ESU, Lenz, NCE. There are arguments for and against all of them.
Simple things like "shuttles" which just run on their own are a doddle using "Assymmetric DCC" and Lenz Silver or Lenz Gold decoders. Cost is in the decoder, a few diodes in the track supply, and a switch/relay to turn the reverse circuit on/off. This doesn't need computers anywhere, and will work with any DCC command station of any maker; my local ScaleFour group layout has an automatic shuttle for a diesel railbus (railbus has a Lenz Gold+Power1 module), the DCC controller is a Bachmann E-Z from a trainset !
Automatic stopping infront of signals can be done with the same method *if* you restrict your loco decoders to those which support Assymmetric DCC (aka ABC); which is Lenz, Zimo and some, but not all, CT Elektronik decoders. But as soon as you use other decoders, the ABC braking doesn't work on those decoders, so those locos will sail past the stop instruction.
More complicated automation and the costs start to mount, you require track detection (where the train has reached) and a method to control the automation (either hardware boards, or software in a computer). That won't be cheap.
If you are considering anything American that I can definitely put you in touch with someone who can help you. Exactly where are you in the UK? If you get to either Brighton Model world in February there will be a variety of scales and outlines on show - and the NMRA stand will be there.
From the original posting I guess you are somewhere in the north east. There is an NMRA division (=club) which meets in the old Crewe signal box. There is also British information there. Let me know if you are near and I can put you in touch.
As for couplings, if you are starting new then the Kadee couplings provide a fairly simple, effective form of coupling. There are a number of sites which also show how to fit them to UK stock, but the American outline often has them already fitted which may be easier.
Before you finally you decide it would be very wise to try to get top as many shows as you possibly can so that you can make a more informed choice.
But no-where near the quality of a similarly priced analogue controller. The EZ is about as basic as it gets, and offers little in the way of programability - which is one of the main benefits of DCC as far as I'm concerned.
I suspect that Bachmann just used its existing manufacturing equipment for the wheels, easier and simpler than retooling for some odd-ball version of "OO wheels." And Bachmann uses the RP25 profile.
Airfix and Mainline used finer wheel standards than the Hornby of the time, who eventually followed suit. These were a lot closer to the EM stndards and similar to the wheels on Slaters and Ultrascale kits.
Something like the OO fine that Iain Rice proposed, and there might be a society for.
They have narrower treads and deeper flanges than RP-25, which the first time I saw them (on an RTR brass small prairie in the late
1970s) looked good from the side but not the front.
I have a 6' x 8' double loop with a third track on one side, plus sidings. I have two dual MRC280 DC transformer/controllers which cost me under £100. They give excellent low-speed control with 5-pole motors. Three controllers are each connected by a single drop feed to the three-track section: the fourth can be used for the sidings independent of the running loops. I have no section switches; I use the (insulfrog) points to control where the power goes. Since the layout is small, I have no problem with voltage drop by distance, or through points.
I started out using DC 60 years ago; with my current layout, which is 10 years old, I see no advantage in going to the cost and effort of chipping my non DCC-ready locos or replacing my perfectly fine DC controllers. I can operate two trains on the double loop independently and shunt in the sidings, each with a separate control handle.
Starting out from scratch is a different issue, certainly. Chipped locos and a DCC control system do involve some extra expense, which can be justified if one has longer-term plans to expand the layout. However, if it's in a limited space and isn't likely to expand, DC can a viable alternative that is less technically complex than DCC. I don't have any of the multitudinous problems with DCC operation that I have seen discussed on this group. In short, DC works fine for me!
There is now a "Proto and Fine scale" standard, see the NMRA website, S-1.1, 3.1, and 4.1, and RP-3 and 4. The old standards are being revised to eliminate one-sided tolerance specs. Note that S-1.1 acknowledges the pioneer work done in the UK.
Several mfrs offer "code 88" wheels for HO, ie, 0.088" wide, which is the narrowest wheel that will operate on NMRA standard trackwork. The usual wheel is "code 100." The proto wheel would be a "code 66".
What about ready to run on both sides of the Atlantic?
It's been a long time since I was in OO, and before I got rid of the older engines because they were too crude, I'd gone through a program of replacing wheels.
I was already in 7mm scale when I emigrated to the USA. The ready to run American stuff has wheels a lot coarser than the Gauge O Guild fine standard that is pretty well universal in the UK.
This is the reason Bachmann originally dropped out of the British O Gauge market. They produced some nice carriages and wagons but the wheels on their first engine (a J94?) were horrible. They had another engine almost complete (a 4F?) and had to withdraw production to get them right for the British market. So the project made a loss and they pulled out.
If Tower Models hadn't stepped in to commission models to British standard from the same factory we probably wouldn't even have British RTR brass today.
Most HO RTR nowadays has RP25 wheels and knuckle couplers. Weight is usually close to NMRA recommendations, too. Prototype fidelity and level of detail is high, and it looks like mfrs are trying to one-up each other in this respect. Most locos are available in DC and DCC and/or DCC Sound. By and large, these models are _not_ suitable for children. Many older models have been upgraded, initially with better mechanisms, but recently with improved or even new tooling.
The old style kit are dying out. Many mfrs of now offer tehir kits assembled and "ready to roll." One respected kit maker, Athearn, will no longer make the "blue box" kits that helped many of us get started when we couldn't afford brass or other RTR.
Can't really comment on OO, as I rarely buy any.
I've snipped your interesting sidelight on Bachmann and 7mm.
Are these the finer wheels or the older wider ones?
That was just to show that the O-scale RP25 commercially available stuff is fairly coarse.
They specify a comparatively wide envelope and any manufacturer whose products fit within it can say they are to RP25, but the RTR stuff and the track is at the coarser end.
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