I never questioned that point, for bottles who's lessors still exist and have legal ownership. I still think that returning the lessors property is the best course.
Let's agree to disagree about bottles that lost their lessors during times of economic downturn. If no one has legal, legitimate ownership, can we safely assume that the lessee assumes legal title?
Does 'Sparks Welding' assume legal title to 'Burns Welding' outstanding lease stock after 'Burns' goes out of business, sans any contractual agreement between them?
I hardly think that 'Sparks' has any standing at all, here.
Winston wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news2.newsguy.com:
A moot point: unless the lessor simply abandons everything - including buildings, equipment, etc. - and shuts down operations without ANY outstanding bills then SOMEBODY took ownership of the business including ALL assets.
This includes any bottles "on lease" at the time of the closure.
Therefore SOMEBODY actually OWNS the "on lease" bottles even though that SOMEBODY may not have any business presence within 3,000 miles.
So, 'Burns Welding' of Barstow, CA goes out of business. The receiver is a Real Estate Investment Trust based in Manhattan.
Fred brings his 'Burns' leased bottle into 'Sparks' for a swap. Sans any legal agreement between 'Burns', 'Sparks' or the REIT, does 'Sparks' magically become the new owner of the bottle, somehow? How can this be?
Winston wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news2.newsguy.com:
Since the individual who presented the bottle is NOT the owner (as evidenced by the marked ring) the supplier is simply "protecting" the customer by taking the "stolen property" [Theft By Bailee] off his hands and holding it for delivery to the proper owner - REIT according to your scenario....
FWIW, your original question only proposed "ownership" of "orphan bottles" be vested in the possessor.
The "collar", or area that looks like cast metal just below the threads is where MOST identifying marks are. It goes around the tank, and is about one inch wide. Embossed means that the letters or symbols are cast in sand, and are raised. They can also be stamped in metal stamp numbers and letters just below that where the dates of hydro testing appears.
Usually, the "owner" bottles have a "collar" that has no embossed lettering, as in company name. There are a lot of USN tanks around, meaning U. S. Navy, but those were sold as surplus, and are considered "owner" tanks. So it is with bankrupt companies, and companies that are out of business provided the ensuing company does not claim rights to them. They can be traded bottle for bottle, provided they are within hydro, have an identifying paper ID label designating what gas is inside, and that they have no manually stamped ID below that. If they are not in hydro, and you are a good customer, they may forego that, and just trade you out. Worst thing is to have an open valve, or a cylinder with no paper label on it, as then it has to be emptied, purged, and tested. With an open valve, there is a chance that moisture has gotten in there, and the valve has to be removed, the cylinder has to be endoscopically inspected, and maybe polished internally by rolling with ball bearings and an abrasive medium. Then purged and filled. So, when you use your cylinders, resist the urge to drain them dry, and leave SOME pressure in them.
Next time you're at your gas supplier, ask the counter geek, and they will probably give you a tour and explain it so you understand when you are looking at bottles for sale what exactly you are looking at and whether or not it coincides with the story your being given.
And if I'm a customer with an account who has already spent $3k with you this year and I bring in a bottle, what do you do? Do you insist that I give it back, or do you bend a bit and make some sort of a compromise to keep my business? This company was not bending at all.
If I park my Hertz rental around the corner in the Avis lot to check on a friend's reservation and Avis has my rental towed to impound, I am the one being protected, yes? All agree that I don't own the Hertz car, but Avis has the obligation to assume that I stole it and will 'protect' me thusly? Did I get that right? :)
How often do you suppose that 'Sparks Welding' delivers off-lease 'Burns Welding' gas bottles across the country to the Manhattan offices of the Real Estate Investment Trust? 'Sparks' wouldn't keep the bottles for their own use, do you suppose?
Why is this is not considered theft from the lessee?
My original question was poorly worded. It was: "Turning down the collar would make a perfectly acceptable trade-in hinky, yes?"
I meant to ask if a reasonably attentive welding outlet would suspect fraud if presented with a gas cylinder that had been modified to remove identifying information that named another 'local supplier' as it's owner.
In the same post, I said that modifying the bottle would be "self defeating".
It would be *much* better for the possessor to leave the bottle un-modified and return it to that 'local supplier'. I implied that an off-lease 'Burns Welding' bottle that had no current owner might easily be returned to 'Sparks Welding' for cylinder credit just as if it were an 'owner' bottle. Why not?
Well, they do keep them - Sorta. One supplier I used to frequent a lot had their entire back yard rear and side fences lined with old bottles - from other suppliers.
And they weren't 3000 miles away, many were within 100 miles, and there were often a few dozen from the same supplier batched up in a row, enough to make it worth sending a truck over to pick them up. ANd not from the 1930's, many weren't all that old or obviuously damaged - they just had that collar on them.
When I asked, I was told they never even try to contact the alleged owners, they just "recover" them from the people who "stole" them and treat them as 'Found Steel Pipe in an odd shape." And turned them into a nice fence.
It is theft, but they do this as a "Professional Courtesy" - and then they keep what they recover for their own. Something still seems mighty wrong with this...
It would be nice iof you could take that long drive to the next county and turn that "Burns" botle back to a Burns location and get a nice 'Finders Fee' for your trouble.
The only thing you are liable to get is arrested for stealing. Insane, but true.
Someone pass me the die grinder.
The trick is to match the patina after you finish the grinding duties, so you don't have a very obvious shiny spot on an otherwise mill finish ring. I know it'll be a problem, but I've never had to tackle the problem myself... Sandblast with silica? Shot peen? Bead blast? Chlorine Bleach wipe to accelerate rust patina?
That is perfectly reasonable and answers my question. Thanks!
(...)
I always returned bottles with some pressure in them, just because it seemed like a reasonable thing to do. If you asked me why I did that, I would not have been able to give you a good reason.
Some scuba shops will not (or can not by law) refill a bottle with an open valve until the valve has been removed and the interior inspected and cleaned. This is because 99.9% of the time, chances are that salt water is in there, and lot of newer tanks are now made of aluminum instead of the old steel ones. There is enough change of temperature from daylight to dark and back over a few days for a tank to actually breathe in and out, and in places where there is humidity, the moisture stays behind after the air is exhaled during a heated time period. Or if it rains, water droplets are actually pulled into the tank with the drop of temperature and subsequent reducing air pressure inside the tank. Minimal, yet measurable. Ever notice how much a bottle of water expands and contracts in the sun? Same thing.
PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.