Counterfeit LiPo packs.

Are these really counterfeit, Red? That is, do they purport to be a brand that they aren't? Is there a way to identify counterfeits? I was of the opinion that if you bought well-known brands you were relatively safe. But if counterfeits are on the market, that makes it a bit harder to buy by brand.

Harlan

"> Specific counterfeit batteries are being offered on e-bay.

and also at:

This stuff is getting crazy....

I bought a digital SLR a while back; a Nikon D70. When I decided to pick up a spare battery, there were several third-party models available for MUCH less cost than the OEM Nikon Lithium Ion pack.

There were all kinds of warnings around about not buying the cheaper third-party types because of the risk of explosion and fire ruining the camera, burning down your home, etc.

Guess what? I received a recall notice from Nikon last month. The OEM battery can explode or catch fire..... :-)

Good flying, desmobob

| This stuff is getting crazy....

It is? I thought it had been for a long time.

| I bought a digital SLR a while back; a Nikon D70. When I decided to | pick up a spare battery, there were several third-party models | available for MUCH less cost than the OEM Nikon Lithium Ion pack.

And in many cases, the OEM packs are identical to the official packs, beyond having different stickers. | There were all kinds of warnings around about not buying the cheaper | third-party types because of the risk of explosion and fire ruining the | camera, burning down your home, etc.

And where did the warnings come from? Somebody who's making money selling the `genuine' packs, right?

| Guess what? I received a recall notice from Nikon last month. The OEM | battery can explode or catch fire..... :-)

... and so can the `genuine' packs. But of course Nikon would prefer that you buy your batteries from them, `for your safety.' Auto makers used to do the same sort of thing, saying you wouldn't be covered by warranty unless you did your things like oil changes at the dealer -- at least until laws were passed against that sort of thing.

If these people are selling batteries under the Kokam name and they're not really Kokam packs, then Kokam should be able to after them for trademark issues, and I'm sure Ebay love to take down all their auctions with just a fax or an email.

But beyond that, I'm not sure what makes them `counterfeit' -- are they not LiPo, but instead NiMH? (Somehow, I doubt it.) Are they inferior in any way?

Don't get me wrong -- if you're paying extra for the Kokam name, you should get Kokam cells, but suppose the cells were called Makok ... would they still be `a threat to safety and viability of Li Po cells'? Would the sellers be `unscrupulous peddlers'?

Going back to Red's original post --

Once the cell has burned to a cinder, it is impossible to verify its origin, so making a claim against the legitimate vendor is possible.

isn't that always the case? And don't the vendors all basically say to NOT do what we do to our cells? (sure, it's akin to `do not insert Q-tip into ear' warning.)

If I had a cinder that came from a burned cell, which also burned down my house, would Kokam happily agree to pay damages, even though they can't confirm that it was their cell to begin with? (Even if I have a receipt for cells that I bought from them a few weeks before?)

Seems unlikely. What seems far more likely is that Kokam would say 1) that's a Makok (or whatever) cell, not one of ours (even if there's no way to tell), 2) we tell you not to discharge the cells at more than

2C (even if they're rated for 20C), 3) we don't warranty R/C usage, 4) you must have damaged the cell -- it's your fault, 5) obviously your application shorted circuited the cell -- your fault, etc.

I recall a similar warning going out about cell phone batteries not too long ago.

talks about it a little bit.

Or there's this one

--

`LG Infocomm U.S.A. Inc. states that these are counterfeit LG-branded batteries, which do not contain a safety device in the circuitry to prevent overcharging.' ... a likely story, and our R/C packs generally do NOT have these safety devices.

Totally off tpoic, but how do you like that D70? I've got the CoolPix

5700 and it's great for still lifes etc, but really poor for action shots. Looking to pick up a digital SLR and the D70 is on my list o' cameras to look at. How's the shuter lag and can it do "burst" shots, i.e. a whole bunch in rapid succession like a film camera with an auto-winder?

This reminds me of the "Kingwood" home theater setup I saw today at Fry's.. Same font and same little triangle over the "w" as in Kenwood's logo... I had to look twice to see it wasn't actually Kenwood.

As you might suspect, the big, nasty Chinese are being blamed for something occurring in the UK. Get off your high horse. A lot of LiPo cells sold are Chinese or Korean. Because someone is using shady ads to market them doesn't mean that it originates in China.

Also, if they were TRULY counterfeit, it would be VERY easy to shut them down, especially in the UK. One call from Kokam or FMA would put a stop to it.

I got screwed on a batch of LiPo cells last week, a guy who works at my dry cleaner's sold them to me on the cheap. I thought they were good, brand-named batteries, but I didn't notice until I got them home that the label said "Rollex" with two "Ls" on it...

> and also at:

Unscrupulous

and also at:

> > and also at:

And you wonder why?

Steve

I doubt that you could find any industry that does not have a large part of it supplied by China, Korea or Viet Nam. I also believe that many of the brands you "know" to be good are also produced there.

I don't see any point in blaming the manufacturer for the retailer's shady claims.

Is that the manufacturer's fault? Or is it the company that is marketing them? What has Makita done to protect their name? Where does Makita get their batteries from?

Sure, the manufacture has no responsibility for how his product is sent to retail. If you are a Chinese manufacturer you could care less, as you are untouchable under American law and protected by American corporate interests where today's bottom line is all that is important. They could care less where this country will be a few years down the road. And I don't know why I care at my age. I guess its because I don't want to see my grandchildren living like Asian peasants.

Red S.

>> and also at:

Good, enjoy your rice and fishheads.

| You can look at them on the e-bay links I gave. When the oversleeve was | removed the cells were not Kokams. Whether they were safe or not in this | case was not the issue.

It wasn't? Let's look at your original post ...

The concern is obvious but centers on the fact that a faulty or inferior cell may ignite to set a fire.

... isn't that about safety?

Once the cell has burned to a cinder, it is impossible to verify its origin, so making a claim against the legitimate vendor is possible.

And in this case, even if a genuine Kokam cell burned on me (and took something expensive with it, like a house or car) I suspect that Kokam would do everything possible to fight any claim, even claiming that the cells that burned weren't even theirs.

Ultimately, when I buy R/C LiPo packs, I do it with the knowledge that it's incredibly unlikely that anybody will stand behind them -- not the manufacturer, not the retailer, not anybody. From what I can see, puffed packs (likely), fires (rare), etc. are *always* attributed to the end user and that's that. Maybe if there was some serious damage a court case could push it further, but even then I imagine that if things really did burn up completely a court case would fail because it couldn't be _proven_ who the manufacturer and vendor really were.

| They were advertised as Kokam packs.

Ok, so it's a trademark/false advertising issue, not automatically a safety issue. Kokam ought to be able to get the people removed from Ebay with just a few phone calls or faxes. Ebay has a reputation for being extremely responsive (many say too responsive, but that's another issue) to this sort of complaint.

| Sloppy assembly, like these did not have the interconnection circuit | board Kokam now uses, could lead to problems with simply solder | joints between the cells.

You could have just said so in your original post, rather than relying on the F.U.D. (fear, uncertainty, doubt) of `a faulty or inferior cell may ignite to set a fire.'

It's good to know that these people are selling stuff as Kokam that's not Kokam -- that's a good reason by itself not to buy from them if you like Kokam stuff.

But you don't need to add the F.U.D. -- just state the facts.

Out of curiosity, what do you do with all the pepper you pick out of the fly shit?

RS

| Out of curiosity, what do you do with all the pepper you pick out of | the fly shit?

Are you *trying* to be an idiot? Or is that just a side-effect of not dealing well with not having your word taken as indisputable gospel?

It's pretty well established that few people respond to criticism well, even constructive criticism, but such a comment really sets you apart from most.

There are no copyright laws in China. They all copy each other and everyone else. I have been told this directly by one of the Chinese manufacturers I work with. They see it as a problem as well. They produce a high quality product and are getting hammered by cheaper prices for JUNK copies of their products.

"The OTHER Kevin in San Diego" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com...

I think it's a fantastic camera; highly recommended. VERY little shutter lag and will shoot at about 3 FPS for a quite a few frames, depending on the file size chosen (min. of four frames up to 49 frames continuous). Plenty of autofocus options for your action shooting.

Good flying, desmobob