Protocol on a mid-air?

As a past construction safety review board member and an R/C pilot allow me to point out to you that safety does not end with a set of written rules nor is blame washed away because someone causes damage, injury or death do to an act of stupidity not on a warning label or check-off list. Anytime someone creates or ignores a situation where common sense, good judgment and normal intelligence tells them the situation is a safety hazard and their actions result in damage, injury or death then they are responsible whether or not there is a rule printed somewhere against it. A safe flyers and flying fields depends on those enjoying the hobby to think and apply common sense in their activities. Even my states driving rule book says that any rule or right is void if the clear result will be an accident. Safety is an attitude and a way of thinking, not a set of written rules. So no, Mr Raven, at the end of the day blame is not always washed away when no clear violation of any written rules takes place. Nor does it mean that the person with the plane destroyed by the unsafe activity of another person that is not in the rulebook should not have the right to pursue reimbursement, if they choose to. I will agree that it is often not worthwhile perusing compensation when another destroys your plane, if no bodily injury has occurred, however allowing the perpetrator to skate on accepting the blame for his/her unsafe actions because it is not in the rule book leads to more accidents, not fewer.

Bob Ruth AMA 720565

Reply to
BobAndVickey
Loading thread data ...

Agreed, but trying to apportion blame is a very difficult or sensitive issue. This is particularly so when it's something not dealt with by any specific rule but left to subjective judgement. Subjective judgement being difficult to find when agreived parties are involved.

Agreed, but sometimes events occur that seem obvious in hindsight but not at any time previous. This is where every incident should be used as an opportunity to learn lessons and establish a safer set of rules/guidelines etc.

Not disagreeing at all however trying to get everyone to agree on "common sense" isn't very common. This is where rules help establish an agreed boundary. The boundary may not be perfect but it's open for improvement.

Not disagreeing with you there. I wish more people did use their common sense first and the rules second.

I see your point and agree in principle but when you are talking about a loose knit group of individuals pursuing a common interest it becomes very difficult politically and practically to make such judgements post incident, particularly when there is no clear guideline.

It is necessary to evaluate each incident as it occurs and wherever possible/practical take actions to avoid it reoccuring. If the club has to step in to mediate so be it, however this is something that should be avoided if it can be resolved at a gentlemanly agreement.

Hence if every first incident is evaluated carefully and preventative measures taken, perhaps via revised rules or better education, the incident is unlikely to occur again. In the unlikely event it does, there will be a clear course of action.

I see your points and accept them as very reasonable but, this is a hobby and it when club run it is up to the club to set a *minimum* safety standard and deal with breaches. Rules, as you point out, should never override common sense that would prevent an accident.

Reply to
The Raven

I am just reading this after posting a long post in response to pe reivers about

'how it is not always as safe to fly at a club as to fly alone in a cow patch'

Thanks for making my points for me in very explicit terms... :-)

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

That implies you know what you are about to do....:-)

"About to do low inveted pass..er make that an oustide half loop chaps"

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Takes a newbie to talk common sense really.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Its called 'quality approach to management' and it goes (i) shit happens (ii) shit DID happen (iii) what, if anything could have been done to prevnt said shit happening (iv) wrote it down in teh rulebook and enforce it for next time (v) contuinue enjoing activity.

Compare and contrast with the 'blame culture;' approach to management.

(i) shit never happens by itself (ii) Shit DID happen (iii) ergo, someone is to blame. (iv) find a scapegoat and sue the pants off him (v) accept the 500% increase in insurance premiums. (vi) accept the loss of the activity in question - i.e. your flying field.

You are defintely a quality approach man :-) So am I as it happens.

Total quality approach. Its been scientifically tested and does indeed produce optimal quality in recurring sitauations. Unfortunately its a bit more difficult to grasp for the simple minded politically aware masses, who want to see someone crucified on a cross for saying the wrong thing at the right time, or vice versa.

Rules are for the 0bedience of Fools, and the guidance of wise men....

In then end, if your club ain't run properly to steer a decent course between the desires of its members and the desires of who owns or administers the land over which you fly, it will die from lack of a field, or lack of members.

Think of it as evolution, in action :-)

My club that I sometimes use, had helicopters. They used to hover over the landing area. So teh club said 'no helicopter when fixed wing are up, no fixed wing when helicopers are up'

This pissed off everybody. And halved the flying time.

Then the chopper boys found another site, a mile away and moved there with no warning, and no mutual frequency control.

After some very unpleasant discussions, they now fly evens, the fixed wing fly odds.

This has proved completely acceptable to all parties, and we still have a club.

Although not consciously thougfht out, this is actually a completely normal response to such a situation, and by dint of elminating all the wrong decision and use of feet to make a point, we now have a stable situation. The rules evolved naturally. If they hadn't all been BLAMING each other, they would have evolved quicker.

I might add that I had no part in any of it. I don't fly there much, but at the electric site or at home, which neiother are particularly rulebound as they are free from masses of fliers, and quite comfortable.

The only mid-air I am likley to see is from herons...

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

You'd argue with a signpost if I said it, Paul. I'm tired of it. You're filtered. Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!"

Reply to
Dr1Driver

Oh no!!! He gave him the filter!! Sorry Gerald, couldn't help it. LOL Eddie Fulmer

Reply to
Efulmer

Subjective judgement, rules.... my ass. Y'all got guns haven't you ? Lets have rage and instant retribution... much quicker >:-) If only we could legally have guns over here in the UK... club membership (especially troublesome ones) would soon be trimmed. You would soon see everyone flying a tight orderly series of circuits, or else !!!

Reg

Reply to
reg

When flying combat one expects mishaps. Gee! Aren't the planes built for it? And I'm sure there are those out there who hope for a midair.

But when Joe Hot Dog takes of with the "Here I come! Get out of my way!" attitude! That type needs to be held responsible for the losses they cause. Truth be known, their attitude probably is the result of their never having been held responsible. IOW they're nothing more than spoiled bratts and you guys let them get away with it.

I was recently visiting a local club. While the club Secretary was putting on the hard sell to get me to join, one of the older members (age and time in club) took off some big cub looking thing. He then proceeded to buzz the runway zooming back and forth doing all manner of turns at each end. Problem was, it was the designated instructor/student time. But this guy was really bothering the few students in the air. I pointed this out to the secretary and asked what the club would do about this. He said nothing. The old guy was a past this and that and had been around for so long etc. etc. To which I commented thanks but no thanks. That's when I cleared what is now the flying field on my property. And guess what! The old guy is barred from my field and a number of others have thanked me for it.

Accidents happen. But when someones behavior obviously contributes, hold them responsible! Otherwise you haven't taught them a thing.

Chuck

Reply to
C.O.Jones

Total quality management? Another way of saying, if it isn't in a rule book, I can do it and get away with it! Typical socialist crap!

rules/guidelines

reimbursement,

Reply to
C.O.Jones

No, its in all quality control theory as used by E.g. NASA, GM, Ford etc etc etc.

The fact that you are too syupid to understand is symptomatic

of a brainwashed member of a blame culture.

Enjoy the decline and fall of the American Empire...

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

More intellegeint people than you have made the mistake of thinking like that. I know it's just wishful thinking on your part. Somehow, I think we will be around, just as successful long after you are looking at the root ends of the dandelions. Bill (From Pissed Off Bovine Country)

improvement.

Reply to
me

That's trouble-solving, the good o'l American way... (and also the way it was in Orwille's 1984)

Reply to
GuW

Been there. When I was a club officer I never minded being the "bad guy" or "field Nazi" when it came to flying safety and courtesy. It takes rules (mostly common sense) to create a safe environment for flying, no matter if it's a large club or 2-3 guys who've gathered in someone's cow pasture. Dr.1 Driver "There's a Hun in the sun!"

Reply to
Dr1Driver

At our club, mid-air collisions are no-fault events. (We might make an exception on a deliberate one.)

-- Mike N.

Reply to
Mike Norton

[snip]

This sounds reasonable.

Unfortunately happens to often.

Thankyou, must be some of my practical engineering logic coming to the fore.

Nice quote, who said that?

That sounds unfortunate not to mention foolish with regard frequency control and proximity.

Good idea, did you have a crystal swapping day?

Ahh, but such is the nature of clubs. Some members to avoid politics, others to take it to extremes, and a few try to strike a balance.

I was once involved in archery and had an arrow, on the way to the target, mid-air with a sparrow. Perhaps I should have sued the sparrow.............

Reply to
The Raven

Now does this sound like a successful individual who is confident in their success? Or like a failure seeking someone or something on which to blame their failure?

NASA? A government agency!

GM and Ford? Driven one lately?

Too stupid? Care to compare portfolios? Education? Career? Lifestyle?

Blame culture? Not hardly. And especially not like you. I simply expect real men and women to own up to their mistakes as well as their responsibilities. Operative word, REAL! In the meantime, I see where you already have your next group of blame victims lined up: NASA, GM, Ford, etc.

As for what you call the decline of the American Empire? Not in your lifetime! Though I'll grant you this. You're certainly in a position to recognize a crumbling society when you live in one. Now who are you going to blame that on?

Reply to
C.O.Jones

Should do, cos I am.

Yup. Mind you its not manufactued over there. I have a big Jaguar - excellent quality control and replacement under warranty, but at 100k dollars it should be huh?

Haven't driven teh local GM cars - vauxhall/opel is teh Euro brand - recently, but they are pretty rekliable stuff. Up to Japanese standards.

Masters edgree in engineering from Cambridge, been and enginner all my life, now retured at 53 after selling my company for a few million. I sit on my arse working the stock market, building toy planes and having a bit of a break.

I have not. These are companies who actively use quality managegment techniques. To get better products out. As do the Japanese. They don't punish individuals, they fix the systems. The only crime in a proper organisation is not keeping to the systems, and in having ineffeiceinet and stupid systems,.

Darwin?

Be careful what you profess to predict: Those who fail to learn teh lessons of history are condemned to repeat them.

I agree, I won't see the utter decline of the US in my lifetime, since I only have maybe 20-50 years to go. From its peak, at around 1850, it took more or less 120 years for te British empire to effectively cease to exist as an economic prop to this country.

However look out for rapid transitions in the US way of life on the next ten years.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Now we know why they took your guns away in the UK. In the states, we usually manage to use guns for either committing a crime, or better yet, killing criminals in act of committing a crime... not for settling heated disputes among friends. Oh yea, and target shooting too.

MJC

Reply to
MJC

PolyTech Forum website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.