anyone know any good books with lots of patterns for scroll work?

I just acquired a whole bunch of Metalcraft equipment. In case you aren't familiar with this stuff, it's made in England, and marketed in a very weird
way, sort of like "only sold at county fairs" well not quite but nearly. Have a look at the main US distributor's Web page: http://wrought-iron-handicrafts-store.stores.yahoo.net
I'm trying to make a keep/sell decision. Some of the parts appear genuinely useful, like the one which can bend, roll & rivet 3/16" mild steel strap (aka flat bar). Lots of times I've wanted to roll circles of some strap, or arcs. I also might conceivably get a call for twisted pickets for railings or fences. But the scrolling tools, which appear really nicely made, I can't quite wrap my mind around. To that end, I've decided to try to find a book or two containing a lot of scroll work, either pictured works or projects, don't care. Can you recommend such a book that you yourself have found a valuable resource?
Thanks,
Grant Erwin Kirkland, Washington
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Grant,
I don't know of a book offhand, but often scrolls are seen in between posts on iron railings and grill work. When I was in shop class (70's) we had a scroll bender and lots of work was done with it.
If you can't find a book, google Ornamental Iron or visit some of the larger shops and look at their photos.
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Grant Erwin wrote:

from my (work in progress new) website:
<http://ccgi.workshop-projects.com/cms/tiki-browse_gallery.php?galleryId=2
couple of hundred wrought iron fence/gate designs - lots with scroll work.
--
BigEgg
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bigegg wrote:

Thanks, Mr. Gegg! :-)
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Im not sure whats going on here. I looked at the web page with the couple hundred designs. They look like CoSira Rural Agricultural Board (England) drawings now published by Dover Books. Is that the sourrce. If so you should really reference that. I know Joe Stokes who was involved in tyhe original com;iling of such drawings and there are some copywright issues there. Also, Is Greg asking the questions and posting the pics? Im confused. Someone please educate me!
Andrew

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If you have an issue with the responder's Web site having violations of British trademark rights, I suggest you take those up with him. I am the original poster, and I am looking for collections of scroll designs. What his Web site is is a whole lot of gate designs, which is fine - by the way, they look familiar to me too - but I'm looking for something different.
Neither bigegg (Brian Gegg) nor I am named Greg.
Grant
Andrew Molinaro wrote:

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Got it.
What type of books? I have a library of about 20 good smithing books. I use them exstensively and try to reference the original artist when possible.
For scrollwork I would suggest Robert Bakewell or any of the Dover ironwork books. They have compiled drawings of English, French, Spanish and Italian ironwork designs. I will often look through the books, see a scroll progression that appeals to me and then sketch it into the design I am working on. I feel strongly that there is "nothing new under the sun" and that reinventing the wheel is not productive. Much of my work so far has been studies of masters works or altered versions of things i have seen. Most of what we make has been made before but it is still new to us. I like to learn as much as possible and hopefully someday I will add to the wonderful craft of blacksmithing.
Let me know what you are looking for in particular and I will look in my library for some stuff.
Andrew

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I guess I'm looking for designs of modern-day household items that can be made from scrollwork. My real question is should I keep these scroll benders or let them go?
Grant
Andrew Molinaro wrote:

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Andrew Molinaro wrote:

In my limited experiences in smithing, I found it near to impossible to actually copy the work of another. You can make an object of similar function, but a copy, no.
The metal always seems to find it's own place to be. The best you can hope for is that you stop mucking with it before it's all ruined. :-)
Cheers Trevor Jones
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Grant Erwin wrote:

Try these pages. No copyright issues , else the UK Govt' is in the excrement! http://www.countryside.gov.uk/LAR/archive/publications/craftpublications.asp
Cheers Trevor Jones
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Trevor,
Not to be a @#$% but here is the copyright info directly from the page you listed
Natural England copyright 2006
The material featured on this site is subject to Natural England copyright protection under the Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988.
Different copyright restrictions apply to individual pages and documents on the website depending on their nature.
Natural England copyright protected material (other than Natural England logos) may be reproduced free of charge in any format or medium for the purposes of research for non-commercial purposes, private study, criticism, review, news reporting and for internal circulation within your organisation. This is subject to the material being reproduced accurately and not used in a misleading context. Where any of the Natural England copyright items on this site are being republished or copied to others, the source of the material must be identified and the copyright status acknowledged.
However, if you wish to re-use all or part of this information for commercial purposes, including publishing you will need to apply for a licence. Applications can be sent to:
Email: snipped-for-privacy@naturalengland.org.uk
Just so you don't think I am a wanker, I was busted by a British dude about 10 years ago while working for a british smith. We were using one os these designs and had not spent the funds to request the drawings from CoSira. It turns out that the whole thing is a bit like most things in the UK. Lots of rules, veryt little enforcement. We blew the whole thing off at the time. Especially because the guy who compiled a lot of the drawings turned out to be my bosses dad. Great guy, by the way.
Anyway, it's no skin off my back. I just don't want anyone to get a suprise in their email box from some overeager britishcopyright narc.
Andrew
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Andrew Molinaro wrote:

Andrew - Thanks for the heads -up . I have removed the images from my site until I have had confirmation from "Natural England" that I can use them
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Andrew Molinaro wrote:

No sweat!
I intended the copyright comment with regard to the fact that it was unlike to have been posted for download by the UK gov't, had there been any issues with that.
As to the use of a design. I figure that It would be a minor miracle if one could not prove the equivalent of "prior art" in the event that some wanker took the issue to task.
That, or it's time to run out and copyright protect the design of a picket fence, and start thousands of enforcement actions. :-)
I fall back on my statement of earlier. Even with an original in front of me, the best I can expect is to end up with an item of similar function. I do not think the same, nor do my hands move in the same manner, as the smith that made the original, and I have my doubts that the original that may be in front of me, is exact to any drawing that may have existed.
Now, were I to be copying the designs and bundling them for redistribution, different thing, in my view.
Cheers Trevor Jones
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That happens a lot more than most folks suspect. Consider the guy who attempted to "back-enforce" the whole concept of integrated circuits.
Or our experience: A competitor patented (successfully) a certain pyrotechnic device. He patented it in the late 1990s. The design, down to the last detail, has been in constant use by the entire pyrotechnic community for well over 100 years. Obviously he failed to note in his prosecution of the patent that he was aware of prior art, and the USPTO accepted the application without question. Go fig!
We'd been making and selling those devices for twenty years prior to his patent, and twenty-five years before his attorney's contacting us with an infringement notice.
In that case (of course!) we had to hire a patent attorney to threaten him with criminal action for lying to the USPTO. We documented our defense with copies of assembly drawings of the item from pyro texts over 100 years old.
I'd have loved to see his face when he saw the drawings. I'd have loved even more hearing what his attorney said to him when he found out he was being used like that.
<G> LLoyd
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In alt.crafts.blacksmithing Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

Cool story. :)
I got a question about firecracker powder.
Back in high school (late 60's) I would compare my homemade fire- cracker powder to what came inside any and all cherry bombs etc I could get my hands on and eneded up with some mighty fine powder! :)
So fast forward to the late 90's and got my hands on a "dud" aerial salute (young friend gave it to me) and of course did the same, but found their powder (looked like mine, G dark) was quite abit stonger than mine.
I haven't done my homwork on that :/ so don't have any answers just questions.
Antimony sulfide is my only guess at this point and don't feel like it's a good one. :/
I know you can't tell me here or even email, it's up to me to figure it out on my own. I want to know the answers whether I act on it or not tho! :)
Got any suggestions on where to look (begin again;)? :)
My favorite trick is to make everyone guess "how high" the 5 gallon bucket will go with -this- firecracker under it. One inch bore, hardly ever made anything bigger. You know what happens. :) But they don't... it gets ripped to pieces. But it's cool to get them to picture the strength ahead of time then find out there's a lot more energy in there than they thought. :)
Pressure cooker lid is another favorite of mine, right after gathering up the 5 gallon can pieces. ;)
Alvin in AZ
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Lloyd E. Sponenburgh wrote:

I've heard that the patent office has gone all toothless and useless. Didn't they used to check on the patent applications prior to issuing, at one time?
When you succesfully defend yourself against a claim that is so far fetched, can you then turn around and sue for costs, or is it cheaper to just have someone killed?
Cheers Trevor Jones
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Andrew Molinaro wrote:

Hi. The pictures were scanned from a 1920's book on wrought iron design
I don't recognise the reference to Cosira / Dover books, but will investigate.

No. Grant Erwin asked the question, I (bigegg) answered
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R.J. Cunningham puts out a multi-volume set on ornamental iron work, Salt Lake City, Utah. I have the complete two volume set, cost about $125 10 years ago. It is a bible among ironworkers, as it also includes cost analysis, set up for a given design, some how to, etc. Very interesting, altho I just used it for the pictures, for a whole bunch of stuff I wound up never building. :(
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Don't know of any books but the scrolling attachment that used to be available for the Harbor Freight Compact Bender included instructions with a few examples. The scroller doesn't show up on their site any more but the book is tacked onto the end of the manual for the compact bender at:
http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/38000-38999/38470.PDF
Scroll down about 3/4 of the way to find the scroll attachment manual, titled "Ornamental Wrought Iron Idea And Design Booklet".
Also, if you're talking about the tools I think you're talking about Harbor Freight sells a Chinese set for about $130 that includes 3 of the MetalCraft tools:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber6131
http://www.harborfreight.com/manuals/36000-36999/36131.PDF
Best Regards, Keith Marshall snipped-for-privacy@progressivelogic.com
"I'm not grown up enough to be so old!"

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I looked at the videos on the site you refewrenced. Pretty darn handy if you ask me. I think you should definitely hold onto them. We have created a lot of items that work very much the same in our shop. We build them much larger though. I think the tools they have are made for some very light stock...still I bet you could get quite good and fast with them in time.
Good find!
I will look around for some designs that seem to aply to these tools.
Andrew
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