Kurt Knock-off Problem

To All:
    Just to alert everyone to a freak problem we had with a Kurt type vise.     The problem happened with an MSC Kurt look-alike vise. A coworker was
putting some flats on both sides of some .125 pins. But then some of the pins' flats were off center even after being indicated in. So we put an indicator on the back jaw (a custom made one) and saw that when the vise was tightened the indicator moved some .005. Then we put the indicator on the back of the immovable jaw support (at least theoretically immovable). And IT MOVED .005 when the vise was tightened. The vise was taken off the machine and the solid support was taken off the base and all surfaces and the key and keyway were cleaned, deburred and reassembled. It STILL moved when tightened.     Now I'm not saying this couldn't happen to a real Kurt, but it DID happen to non-Kurt vise.
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If this is one of those Chinese Kurt knock-offs then you deserve what you got. How much money have you saved now?
What happened to this thing?
http://www.buildacncvise.com/index.aspx
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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jon_banquer wrote:

Jon:
    This particular vise was purchased in an auction some years ago. It has an MSC label and is obviously of much better quality than the couple of Chinese vises we bought years ago (which were totally unusable).
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wrote:

For the tiny difference in price vs the quality difference, I can't imagine not using a Kurt.
We have: 2 D675 manual singles 1 4" manual single 1 4" hydraulic single 1 4" manual double
the d675s were bought new
the rest were from auctions / ebay
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Jon wrote:

Jon:
    I looked around the shop yesterday (10 man shop, 5 programmers 5 manual guys), and here's what I could find in the way of vises.
3 each, Kurt D688's (6" wide jaw - 8.8" opening)
2 each, Kurt D675's (6" wide jaw - 7.5 opening)
3 each, Kurt D810's (8" wide jaw - 10" opening)
4 each, Kurt 6" wide jaw DoubleLock vises
2 each, 6" Old style Kurt vises
2 each, MSC Kurt copies (one of which was the offending vise that started this thread)
2 each Chinese Kurt copies (that were out of square some .005 on the vertical 1.750 jaw height right out of the box, so have almost never been used)
2 each old Kurts that have had the side rails milled off for some special job.
1 each Taiwan Kurt copy (seems useful when none of the others are available)
    There are a couple of more vises in the back of the shelf, but I don't know what they are.
    One of the Makino Horizontal machine's tombstones has 4 integral (built in - non removable) double lock type vises from Toolex:
http://www.te-co.com/Toolex+Vise+Systems-C-6000-C-.aspx
    It is an 8 station unit, with the neat feature that the jaw blocks themselves are easily removable/replaceable with other blocks for easy fixture building.
    Well that's about it for us vise wise, I would guess the selection is fairly common in a small shop that's been in business for a few decades.
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There is nothing special or great about the standard Kurt vise. They were better than Bridgeport vises. They have served well. It's time for something better.
Where is it? I saw it at a Haas demo day over a year ago:
http://www.buildacncvise.com/inthegarage.aspx
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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On Fri, 11 Apr 2008 06:02:12 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

Jon,
Chick makes a fine product so does Kurt. So in your own words exactly what makes the Chick "Something Better"?
Funny how your link puts an old rusted vintage Kurt vise next to the compititions NEW shiny vise. It's also funny that the vintage Kurt vise other than some rust looks to be in remarkably good condition.
Tom
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jon_banquer wrote:

Jon:
    Kurts aren't sacred or special, they're just a good design. That's why they are copied so much.

    But, but, shops that use Kurts probably have stored "legacy" progra...err vise jaws. We have long jaws for two, and three vises, we have special serrated jaws, we have our own custom jaws that hold parallels when the vises are held vertical on tombstones. We have a whole slew of custom jaws for various jobs and the common feature of these hundreds of jaw sets is that they fit the Kurt bolt pattern.     That just happens to be one minor reason that the Chinese Kurt copies aren't used, those putzes(?) not only couldn't make them square, they couldn't even copy the jaw bolt pattern correctly.     Let's hope any hypothetical Kurt replacements have the same bolt pattern.

`    Those puppies don't look cheap.
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They're a dated design. Very dated. Kurt's are copied because that's what most shops buy and there is a *big existing market* for those that don't think for independently and must have what everyone else has. Kurt's standard vise is not copied because it's a state of the art vise.
Have you ever used a Chick System 5 workholding system?

After talking to Chick today I doubt they will ever be made. Price wise Chick guaranteed them to be in the same price range as a standard type Kurt. I think around $600 but don't hold me to that.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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You mean your only experience with a product you're commenting on comes solely from a demo? How surprising!
If there's "nothing special or great about the standard Kurt vise", why is it the industry standard? What other 6 inch standard vise would you recommend in it's place?
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Joe788 wrote:

Joe, These from an occasional poster, Stan Dornfeld, look nice:
http://quad-i.com/web/products-vises.html
For myself I'm a Kurt vise kinda guy. When I got my new VMC I ordered a couple of Kurt 6" vises, the kind that you can put on their side if needed (no coolant trough). They came in matched even though I didn't request this, which was a very nice benefit. I also like the way that you are able to lay a piece of shim stock in to protect the lead screw from chips. The nut also has a brush type seal to keep the crap off the screw.
If I was Bob's boss I wouldn't have bought a knockoff to begin with. At this point the cheap knockoff would be in the dumpster. No point in throwing good money after bad in repairing it!
Best,
Steve
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Those Quad-I vises definitely look great. They don't really do anything for me particularly but I could definitely see how they would fit in at other shops nicely.
We pretty much only do repeat production work, so regular Kurt vises are reserved for stuff that won't handily go into a Toolex Snaplock dual position vise.
For normal ol' vises though, a Kurt D675 is pretty hard to beat for the price. And it's made right here in America. Kurt Manufacturing is also one HECK of a contract manufacturer, which has always impressed me.
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Garlicdude wrote:

GD:
    Cute vise. I doubt that the X+, Y+ feature is very important in this day and age of CAM systems in virtually every shop.

    Nothing ventured, nothing gained. A regular Kurt costs like what, $500? If the Chinese knock-offs cost like $180 for a pair, and *IF* they had worked as well... then that would be saving like $820.
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Nope it's not an opinion. At this point in time it's a FACT. Will it be a FACT in the future? Who knows.

Not relevant at this point in time.

Since you should retire soon suggest you give it to me. ;>)

I don't think you really understand how far ahead Mastercam has moved and is going to move and how far Gibbscam has fallen. Mastercam is already far ahead of Gibbs technology wise in many areas. The problem is that Gibbscam needs a rewrite from the ground up. Gibbscam needs to be moved into the Cimatron user interface. Their TMS module needs to be brought in house instead of being an Add-In. Where Gibbs really went wrong can be seen right here:
http://www.lantma.org/training_center.htm
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 09:33:03 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer

You planning on taking some of those courses?
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jon_banquer wrote:

Jon:
    Unless you have inspected the Kurt knock-off vises made by EVERY SINGLE CHINESE company making them, you don't KNOW that they are ALL crap. So stating that "Chinese Kurt vises are crap" (a statement which assumes *ALL* since it wasn't qualified by some, most, or everyone I've seen, etc.) results in the statement being no more than unsupported conjecture. In other words, an opinion.

    It very well could be relevant. There may be any number of Chinese companies making a better quality Kurt vises, than Kurt itself.

    Unfortunately, that particular dial caliper is long gone for these last 20 years. RIP
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Now it's correct, Brewer.
Ignorant:
"Jon, I never forgot any of your postings about SDRC I made the wrong decision in spite of what you said. There have been a number of times that my Wife has told me to be careful in dealing with someone and after words says "I told you so". She earned the right to say it as well as you have earned the right to say I TOLD YOU SO. I made a decision that went against my better judgment and as usual it turned out poorly." .... Tom Brewer
Ignorant:
"I do not purchase programs unless I know before hand that they are what I want and/ or need."... Tom Brewer who can't follow his own advice. See above.
Ignorant:
Tom Brewer thinking he and his pals like Joe788 can play their Usenet staking games, lie on a repeated basis and suffer no consequences for doing so.
Ignorant:
"I have shot myself in the foot, not an easy thing to do when it is in your mouth and your head is in your ass."... Tom Brewer admitting what he's often like.
Ignorant:
Someone who has a proven track record of not being able to deal with or accept the kind of change that occurs in the cadcam market... now that's ignorant or should we say that's Tom Brewer.
Ignorant:
Someone who doesn't live in San Diego yet insists there is no shortage of CNC machinists here... now that's ignorant or should we say that's Tom Brewer.
Ignorant:
Someone who criticizes someone on SolidWorks but has never helped anyone with specific SolidWorks answers. Someone who is not able to answer any questions that "Vinny" had on master modeling or skeletal modeling. Someone who has never posted any models they have done... now that's ignorant or should we say that's Tom Brewer.
Ignorant:
Tom Brewer's failure to understand who Matt Lombard really is.
Ignorant:
Tom Brewer's unable to comprehend what's on the cover of the SolidWorks Bible:
"Whether you're a new, intermediate, ...."
Ignorant:
Someone who can't understand more than a simple "I love it!" or "I hate it!" type of comment ... now that's ignorant or should we say that's Tom Brewer.
Ignorant:
Tom Brewer implies that because you acknowledge that the $25 SolidWorks course covers subjects / topics that the $650 SolidWorks course didn't that you're now somehow an idiot and got screwed when you decided to purchase the $650 SolidWorks course.
Tom Brewer Writing About SmartCAM:
"I ended up paying a consultant $40.00 per hour for two weeks."
"FYI, when I said "Solid modeling" in reference to SmartCam it was tongue in cheek. What you could not see is that when I was typing that I was laughing to myself. Anyone that uses SmartCam and Solid Modeling in the same sentence cannot be taken seriously."
Recently Tom Brewer said SmartCAM had no user interface problems and yet the record shows Tom Brewer thinks SmartCAM does indeed have user interface problems:
"The only real problem that I run into is that the screen can get cluttered and it becomes difficult to pick and choose elements in Free Form. I just use the utility masking feature to hide what is in the way, that cures the problem but it does add work (I tried the snap filtering and snap options but for me it was not the best way), I have seen other packages that handle picking and choosing in better."
Conclusion:
Tom Brewer thinks he's a SolidWorks expert. A SolidWorks expert is someone who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA http://worldcadaccess.typepad.com/blog/2007/07/spend-a-littleo.html#comment-76366100
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On Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:17:35 -0700 (PDT), jon_banquer
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jon_banquer wrote:

http://worldcadaccess.typepad.com/blog/2007/07/spend-a-littleo.html#comment-76366100
Here's our Jonnie again - I case anyone has forgotten:
http://www.davidgerard.co.uk/fuckhead.html
Sort of explains everything re our Jonnie.
Jonnie, you pussy, after I went to all the trouble to e-mail you my phone number, you still don't have the balls to call. Somehow, I'm not surprised.
gk
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Now it's correct Nuts son, you lying, pussy.
Jon Banquer San Diego, CA
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