Kurt Knock-off Problem

Jon:

Kurts aren't sacred or special, they're just a good design. That's why they are copied so much.

But, but, shops that use Kurts probably have stored "legacy" progra...err vise jaws. We have long jaws for two, and three vises, we have special serrated jaws, we have our own custom jaws that hold parallels when the vises are held vertical on tombstones. We have a whole slew of custom jaws for various jobs and the common feature of these hundreds of jaw sets is that they fit the Kurt bolt pattern. That just happens to be one minor reason that the Chinese Kurt copies aren't used, those putzes(?) not only couldn't make them square, they couldn't even copy the jaw bolt pattern correctly. Let's hope any hypothetical Kurt replacements have the same bolt pattern.

` Those puppies don't look cheap.

Gary:

That they are looking for the best value for their dollar?

Yep that's why his employees are able to drive cars worth 10-20X yours.....LOL

Same thing that happens when shops buy a CAM or CAD/CAM package and try to skimp on training it ends up costing more money than it saves.

On Dan's link when the page opens up and it has a bold banner saying "Financing Available" you know your in for sticker shock....LOL. Can see how they could be invaluable in a high production enviroment.

Tom

They're a dated design. Very dated. Kurt's are copied because that's what most shops buy and there is a *big existing market* for those that don't think for independently and must have what everyone else has. Kurt's standard vise is not copied because it's a state of the art vise.

Have you ever used a Chick System 5 workholding system?

After talking to Chick today I doubt they will ever be made. Price wise Chick guaranteed them to be in the same price range as a standard type Kurt. I think around $600 but don't hold me to that.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

Tom:

Then that doesn't pass the "Cost to Benefit" ratio test.

I'm sure a number of different (and expensive) vise systems could pay for themselves in a high production environment. But I'll say that I've never been one to believe that "You get what you pay for" in an absolute sense. There are often cheaper substitutes that are more than adequate for task at hand. Not always. But to just buy something because it's the most expensive without researching other sources always seemed a little extravagant.

A personal observation, I see way too many people skimp on training.

You're absolutely correct, I did not recommend anyone purchase them without checking into them further. No matter what there should always be justification for the purchase and investigating alternatives should be part of that process.

You may not always get what you pay for and on the other side of the coin the cheapest rout is often not the most cost effective one.

Tom

It's an aluminum base AND aluminum tower. Try putting 40hp to the part that's in the upper vise position and see what happens.

Nope it's not an opinion. At this point in time it's a FACT. Will it be a FACT in the future? Who knows.

Not relevant at this point in time.

Since you should retire soon suggest you give it to me. ;>)

I don't think you really understand how far ahead Mastercam has moved and is going to move and how far Gibbscam has fallen. Mastercam is already far ahead of Gibbs technology wise in many areas. The problem is that Gibbscam needs a rewrite from the ground up. Gibbscam needs to be moved into the Cimatron user interface. Their TMS module needs to be brought in house instead of being an Add-In. Where Gibbs really went wrong can be seen right here:

You planning on taking some of those courses?

I simply jerked your chain with little or no effort on my part. It's soooo easy to do and it's just one technique I use to own you.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

You jerked my chain by posting incorrect information and then going apeshit when proved wrong? That's amazing!!

I have jerked an idiot like you around for years.... that's what's amazing and it's sooooo easy to do. Take almost no effort on my part.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

jon_banquer wrote in news:0dfc4859-54f2-43bb-88b7- snipped-for-privacy@q10g2000prf.googlegroups.com:

They flex under heavy load.

But in the right application they are just fine.

I believe that but why use overkill / spend more if you don't need to? Kind of like why a Haas is a fine machine for many applications and why it's the wrong choice for many others. In any case, I didn't know about the Dapra vises and I appreciate the link / post.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

Yep. It's a fine product, but for basically the same price, you can get an iron system that doesn't have any of the drawbacks of the Chick system.

-Flex under heavy load.

-Clamping/hold down mechanism for outer jaws is only .5 inch high.

-Center jaw can't be flipped to be used on other jobs, but CAN be installed incorrectly/upside down.

-Short jaw travel.

But hey, for somebody that's never used any other quality double position vise, it's "state of the art engineering," and nothing else even comes close!

I'd bet money that the Chick System 5 is much faster to change over and being lighter can really help. If you don't need the extra weight why have it... of course this logic escapes a brain dead, lying moron like Joe788.

Jon Banquer San Diego, CA

You'd bet money....except you've never actually used any of the other systems?

Both Toolex and Kurt's systems have a snap on outer jaw and two socket head cap screws for the middle jaw. How is the Chick going to be any faster to change over? It's exactly the same.

The Chick certainly is lighter. I don't see how a 40lb vise is going to take any less time to lift than an 80lb vise. Then again, I haven't been a CNC *operator* for 30 years, so maybe all of the vise handle turning has a negative effect on your lifting capability.