connecting batteries in parallel or series, myth and theory

In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: | On Aug 16, 1:44 am, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:
|>
snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: |> |> |> >> They can do things like ensuring that one bank does not cross change another. |> |> >> They can allow separate chargers for each bank. |> |> |> |> >A diode is not a rectifier. |> |> |> |> Why is anyone bothering to talk to you? |> |> |> |> And I'll point out that the above is just the worst |> |> example, not the only one. |> |> |> |> -- |> |> Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson
|> | |> | Gee Floyd, looks like you have been taking lessons from Tweedledum. I |> | never said; |> | |> |> >> They can do things like ensuring that one bank does not cross change another. |> |> >> They can allow separate chargers for each bank. |> |> How _not_ saying those 2 things somehow making your other statement more |> correct? |> |> Have you even considered how to wire rectifiers in series with each battery |> string to ensure the current only flows in one direction with respect to where |> that rectifier is connected? Wired one way, the rectifier allows the string |> to discharge into a load at the other end of the connection (but it cannot be |> charged from that point). Wired the other way, the rectifier allows the string |> to be charged from a source at the other end of the connection (but it cannot |> discharge into a load at that point). | | The very first battery bank I ever set up was a parallel string affair | and I did just that. Total waste of time.
And I presume you would never, ever, do that (install a parallel string) again, even though you don't know any of the physic behind it, simply relying on your experience of the end results of the way you did it, without really knowing if the problems were from the parallel aspect or the way you did it.
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On 17 Aug 2008 20:05:35 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

George says that he would never use paralleled batteries again because the practice led to failure. And yet we know from his other writings that he's on his 5th set of batteries, and that others get longer life out of the very thing he rails against - paralleled GC batteries. Therefore, the failures must be due to at least some other issues. Here are some clues in his own words: "I float my 840Ah batteries at 15 volts(PL40) This makes the batteries bubble quite well" http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/0d5d8096959e852f "I will tell you that the reason I subvert my regulators three stage default setting..." http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/ba4505d846af1553
It seems that George always knows best, and believes that the manufacturer's recommendations don't apply to self-titled "power consultants". Instead, he prefers to invest in a proper 3-stage controller, but "subvert" its features. Neither does he believe in reducing voltage for float, even though he claims that his batteries are fully charged most days by noon. Which would mean that they spend many hours most days "bubbling quite well" at >10% higher voltage than recommended. Not that I take his word about anything, it's far more likely that he's chronically short, and raised the voltage limits in order to prevent the controller throttling supply.
As well, George believes that there's hidden capacity in some batteries. The maker of his batteries specifies a low-voltage cut-out of 11.5V. http://www.batteryenergy.com.au/downloads/3.5.6.00%20Suncycle%20Operation%20and%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf Yet recently in one his infamous deezine demonstrations, George recommended discharging the subject batteries well below 10.8V in order to hide his errors at applying Peukert's exponent.
All things considered, it's no surprise that Ghinius George Ghio holds the record for most dead batteries, and the cause has little or nothing to do with parallel strings. Wayne
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In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net wrote: | On 17 Aug 2008 20:05:35 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote: |
| |>| The very first battery bank I ever set up was a parallel string affair |>| and I did just that. Total waste of time. |> |>And I presume you would never, ever, do that (install a parallel string) again, |>even though you don't know any of the physic behind it, simply relying on your |>experience of the end results of the way you did it, without really knowing if |>the problems were from the parallel aspect or the way you did it. | | George says that he would never use paralleled batteries again because | the practice led to failure. And yet we know from his other writings | that he's on his 5th set of batteries, and that others get longer life | out of the very thing he rails against - paralleled GC batteries. | Therefore, the failures must be due to at least some other issues. | Here are some clues in his own words: "I float my 840Ah batteries at | 15 volts(PL40) This makes the batteries bubble quite well" | http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/0d5d8096959e852f
But would he know exactly what gas these bubble contain, and where this gas ends up?
| "I will tell you that the reason I subvert my regulators three stage | default setting..." | http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/ba4505d846af1553 | | It seems that George always knows best, and believes that the | manufacturer's recommendations don't apply to self-titled "power | consultants". Instead, he prefers to invest in a proper 3-stage | controller, but "subvert" its features. Neither does he believe in | reducing voltage for float, even though he claims that his batteries | are fully charged most days by noon. Which would mean that they spend | many hours most days "bubbling quite well" at >10% higher voltage than | recommended. Not that I take his word about anything, it's far more | likely that he's chronically short, and raised the voltage limits in | order to prevent the controller throttling supply. | | As well, George believes that there's hidden capacity in some | batteries. The maker of his batteries specifies a low-voltage cut-out | of 11.5V. | http://www.batteryenergy.com.au/downloads/3.5.6.00%20Suncycle%20Operation%20and%20Maintenance%20Manual.pdf | Yet recently in one his infamous deezine demonstrations, George | recommended discharging the subject batteries well below 10.8V in | order to hide his errors at applying Peukert's exponent. | | All things considered, it's no surprise that Ghinius George Ghio holds | the record for most dead batteries, and the cause has little or | nothing to do with parallel strings.
He should recycle his leftover lead, if it's not too terribly contaminated. Sounds like he probably has a lot of it.
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On Aug 19, 5:47 am, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Lead by its nature is contaminated, with lead. And yes I have recycled tonnes of batteries as I have replaced tonnes of batteries for many people.
So lets look at waynes assertion. My first set of batteries was a parallel string set up. Learned a lesson from that. Followed by three sets of second hand batteries, well, there was not the cash to do better at the time. Big crime according to wayne. Still they got me through to where I could buy a single string of batteries at the correct Ah capacity. Listen to wayne and you too can do what I did.

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In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
| Lead by its nature is contaminated, with lead. And yes I have recycled | tonnes of batteries as I have replaced tonnes of batteries for many | people.
So pure lead is contaminated with lead. Now that's a weird way to think about things. But I'm not surprised it's coming from you.
| So lets look at waynes assertion. My first set of batteries was a | parallel string set up. Learned a lesson from that. Followed by three | sets of second hand batteries, well, there was not the cash to do | better at the time. Big crime according to wayne. Still they got me | through to where I could buy a single string of batteries at the | correct Ah capacity. Listen to wayne and you too can do what I did.
All this proves is that you are having better luck with a single string. But based on your apparent knowledge, it is all about luck. You didn't try any of the known methods to deal with issues involving two parallel strings?
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On Aug 19, 5:25 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Are you really that thick? Lead is a serious contaminant in the environment. Surprised you don't know that.

Nonsense. It proves that I am right about parallel strings. I also tried most of the geewizzery that every one seems to thing is going to solve the inherent problems of parallel strings of batteries for home power systems.

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In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: | On Aug 19, 5:25 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:
|> |> | Lead by its nature is contaminated, with lead. And yes I have recycled |> | tonnes of batteries as I have replaced tonnes of batteries for many |> | people. |> |> So pure lead is contaminated with lead. Now that's a weird way to think |> about things. But I'm not surprised it's coming from you. | | Are you really that thick? Lead is a serious contaminant in the | environment. Surprised you don't know that.
But in the contex of a lead plate, it is not a contaminate. Lead is what is supposed to be there.
|> | So lets look at waynes assertion. My first set of batteries was a |> | parallel string set up. Learned a lesson from that. Followed by three |> | sets of second hand batteries, well, there was not the cash to do |> | better at the time. Big crime according to wayne. Still they got me |> | through to where I could buy a single string of batteries at the |> | correct Ah capacity. Listen to wayne and you too can do what I did. |> |> All this proves is that you are having better luck with a single string. |> But based on your apparent knowledge, it is all about luck. You didn't |> try any of the known methods to deal with issues involving two parallel |> strings? | | Nonsense. It proves that I am right about parallel strings. I also | tried most of the geewizzery that every one seems to thing is going to | solve the inherent problems of parallel strings of batteries for home | power systems.
All it proves is you did parallel strings the wrong way N-1 times.
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On Aug 20, 12:59 am, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Ah but the context as stated by you was recycling when you said;
"He should recycle his leftover lead, if it's not too terribly contaminated. Sounds like he probably has a lot of it. "
In the context of recycling "LEAD" is the contaminate.

No, it means that you will learn an expensive lesson. You have been fishing for someone to tell you what you want to hear and found wayne.

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In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: | On Aug 20, 12:59 am, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:
|>
|> |> |> |> | Lead by its nature is contaminated, with lead. And yes I have recycled |> |> | tonnes of batteries as I have replaced tonnes of batteries for many |> |> | people. |> |> |> |> So pure lead is contaminated with lead. Now that's a weird way to think |> |> about things. But I'm not surprised it's coming from you. |> | |> | Are you really that thick? Lead is a serious contaminant in the |> | environment. Surprised you don't know that. |> |> But in the contex of a lead plate, it is not a contaminate. Lead is |> what is supposed to be there. | | Ah but the context as stated by you was recycling when you said; | | "He should recycle his leftover lead, if it's not too terribly | contaminated. | Sounds like he probably has a lot of it. " | | In the context of recycling "LEAD" is the contaminate.
No. In that context, anything NOT lead, in the lead, contaminates the lead, and would have to be removed before recycling the lead into making new lead plates for new batteries ... not considering the trace elements generally added to the plates for various reasons.
What do you think happens to the old battery when you trade in your bad car battery to buy a new one? Do you think they're just taking it off your hands so you don't have a dead weight laying around? No. They send it to a battery recycler, or a battery manufacturer, that pays for them by weight, which is an approximation to how much lead they can recover from them for whatever the purpose is.
|> |> | So lets look at waynes assertion. My first set of batteries was a |> |> | parallel string set up. Learned a lesson from that. Followed by three |> |> | sets of second hand batteries, well, there was not the cash to do |> |> | better at the time. Big crime according to wayne. Still they got me |> |> | through to where I could buy a single string of batteries at the |> |> | correct Ah capacity. Listen to wayne and you too can do what I did. |> |> |> |> All this proves is that you are having better luck with a single string. |> |> But based on your apparent knowledge, it is all about luck. You didn't |> |> try any of the known methods to deal with issues involving two parallel |> |> strings? |> | |> | Nonsense. It proves that I am right about parallel strings. I also |> | tried most of the geewizzery that every one seems to thing is going to |> | solve the inherent problems of parallel strings of batteries for home |> | power systems. |> |> All it proves is you did parallel strings the wrong way N-1 times. | | No, it means that you will learn an expensive lesson. You have been | fishing for someone to tell you what you want to hear and found wayne.
I have found out there are ways to mitigate the issues of parallel batteries and strings. Apparently you never did; not even recently.
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On Aug 20, 2:50 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Again you have demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge.

Really! The first and foremost method is to use a single string of the correct Ah rating.
Now you can tell us your new discoveries. Of course they won't be new, they won't be yours and they won't be effective in cost or application.
Been there, done it.

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In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
|> | In the context of recycling "LEAD" is the contaminate. |> |> No. In that context, anything NOT lead, in the lead, contaminates the lead, |> and would have to be removed before recycling the lead into making new lead |> plates for new batteries ... not considering the trace elements generally |> added to the plates for various reasons. |> |> What do you think happens to the old battery when you trade in your bad car |> battery to buy a new one? Do you think they're just taking it off your hands |> so you don't have a dead weight laying around? No. They send it to a battery |> recycler, or a battery manufacturer, that pays for them by weight, which is |> an approximation to how much lead they can recover from them for whatever the |> purpose is. | | Again you have demonstrated a complete lack of knowledge.
One area I do have a lack of knowledge about is just what kind of idiocy you might come up with next. But in this case you clearly have not idea what it is that might contaminate lead.
|> |> |> | So lets look at waynes assertion. My first set of batteries was a |> |> |> | parallel string set up. Learned a lesson from that. Followed by three |> |> |> | sets of second hand batteries, well, there was not the cash to do |> |> |> | better at the time. Big crime according to wayne. Still they got me |> |> |> | through to where I could buy a single string of batteries at the |> |> |> | correct Ah capacity. Listen to wayne and you too can do what I did. |> |> |> |> |> |> All this proves is that you are having better luck with a single string. |> |> |> But based on your apparent knowledge, it is all about luck. You didn't |> |> |> try any of the known methods to deal with issues involving two parallel |> |> |> strings? |> |> | |> |> | Nonsense. It proves that I am right about parallel strings. I also |> |> | tried most of the geewizzery that every one seems to thing is going to |> |> | solve the inherent problems of parallel strings of batteries for home |> |> | power systems. |> |> |> |> All it proves is you did parallel strings the wrong way N-1 times. |> | |> | No, it means that you will learn an expensive lesson. You have been |> | fishing for someone to tell you what you want to hear and found wayne. |> |> I have found out there are ways to mitigate the issues of parallel batteries |> and strings. Apparently you never did; not even recently. | | Really! The first and foremost method is to use a single string of the | correct Ah rating.
And of course you will always be saying this over and over and never back it up with specific scientific reasoning.
| Now you can tell us your new discoveries. Of course they won't be new, | they won't be yours and they won't be effective in cost or | application.
I don't have any new discoveries. What makes you think that?
| Been there, done it.
How many different ways did you connect up batteries in parallel? How many different ways are there to connect batteries in parallel?
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On Aug 21, 3:24 am, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Bye Ron
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On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:57:51 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

You keep saying that, yet curiously aren't willing to share your techniques, or even your current controller settings. Typical pointless Ghinius BS.
Wayne
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In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net wrote: | On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 22:57:51 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: |
| |>> I have found out there are ways to mitigate the issues of parallel batteries |>> and strings. Apparently you never did; not even recently. | |>Been there, done it. | | You keep saying that, yet curiously aren't willing to share your | techniques, or even your current controller settings. Typical | pointless Ghinius BS.
Why should he share them. They're just classic legacy setups he learned about in his class. He expects everyone else to know these already. He's obviously not an engineer or researcher. He's just an installer. If all I wanted was a classic legacy setup, who knows, he might be a fine contractor to do that job. I would not wanting him to design anything out of the ordinary.
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On 20 Aug 2008 18:47:33 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

I don't believe he's learned or done anything other than how to bolt cable to terminal. He only pretended to have done something extra, and it was predicable that he wouldn't supply any details. It's classic ghinius weaseling. He once claimed to have designed his way out of "needing" AC in a very hot climate. I nicknamed his invention "Magic Mass". Daestrom called him on it, and George took the discussion to email to demand a signed non-disclosure agreement before getting into details. But Daestrom outed the whole thing and George never did give so much as his average daily outdoor temperature, or even say what interior temperature constituted "not needing" AC. Hilariously transparent then as now.

What he expects is that most readers won't be able to tell if he's lying. He probably believes that only a few on Usenet know better, but it's likely that even the least technical folks he's ever dealt with were able to see through his bluster. For example, anybody with a pocket calculator can figure out that the following Ghioism is a foolish self-busting exaggeration: "my petrol use is, as it has been for many years, an average of twenty liters per fortnight. The bulk of this is for the motorcycle which is used for transport to and from school (280 KM a week). The rest is used to run the tractor, chainsaw and of course the generator" http://groups.google.com/group/alt.energy.homepower/msg/3e7486014f8fb2ff

Actually, he's long since gone on to pretending to be something new http://www.alibaba.com/member/renegadewriting/aboutus.html . Notice that he claims to "specialise" in editing, yet failed to properly edit his own "company" name. The ad used to have two instances of that particular error, and despite being ridiculed for it, he only managed to fix one of them. It's clearly his M.O. to wildly exaggerate his capabilities.

Reminds me of a story. I once asked a day helper if he knew how to operate a nail gun. He assured me in no uncertain terms. Minutes later he drove a pair of 3" nails through two fingers. Some people just aren't smart enough to admit what they don't know, even when it's against their own interests to pretend otherwise. There's surely something that George could be trusted to do, but even if it was augering a toilet drain I'd be asking myself how many ways he might find to screw up the job. It would take a brave owner to let George Ghio near a large battery bank. After all, what could one say if things went wrong? "I knew he couldn't be trusted to operate an Ohmmeter, but I thought he'd be OK with 1000 Amps" :-)

Did you read his 300k Ohm wire foolishness, and realize that he bills himself as a "power consultant"? The word "design" doesn't fit in with such contradictions except in his imagination.
One more thing you've probably noticed by now. Often, and only *after* George has absorbed yet another thumping in a debate, he'll weasel his way out the door by using any silly dodge. In this case he's pretending to believe that you are Ron. At one point he claimed that I was actually most of the regular posters in the energy newsgroups. Of course, being a true Renaissance nitwit it's unlikely he's capable of reading a header, so the Phil-is-Ron thing could be yet another delusion.
Wayne
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On Aug 21, 10:27 am, snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net wrote:

Poor wayne, never built his house, never designed a system.
When all else fails he tells others what he wants me to have said.
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wrote:

Some days ago he declared it was impossible for one diode to produce DC or charge a battery with a single rectifier. I responded with several links to basic charging circuits and got no response.
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Cool. Now apply that to a DC battery bank.

Look up;
simpleton
liar
At a guess, simpleton, is the correct answer.
.................................................................... Looks like I will have to amend that to:
"At a guess, liar, is the correct answer."
And I am still waiting for the answer as to how it works with DC, being that the whole thing has to do with diodes and battery banks.
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I'll repeat my previous response to your poorly worded question.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_5/3.html
Now, a google search of the four words - half wave battery charger - produces 68000 hits, many of those hits show how it works.
I've built many small battery chargers with a single diode, and no filtering.
I was just correcting your false assertion that a single diode can't produce DC
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There you go again. I never actually asserted that at all. I asked you to show what you know. There is a difference.
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