connecting batteries in parallel or series, myth and theory


Here is my original response of August 16 that you ignored.
-------------------------------------------------------------------- A direct example http://homepage.ntlworld.com/wilf.james/nicads.htm
68000 hits on google for "half wave battery charger" That is a fundamental application, and one I have used many times. Direct connection with a wire. Many modern applications of an old circuit. You probably have used them if you ever used an old automotive charger.
All chemical cells are DC by definition. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rectifier More examples http://www.talkingelectronics.com/projects/BatteryCharger-12vSLA/Batt ... A 1999 patent http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5940280/description.html
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As I already knew the answer from the Penguin Dictionary of Electronics, E.C. Young, 2nd ed. 1988, page 229, I was more interested in your response to the use with batteries. This question is still unanswered as far as separating strings goes.
So... You feel that a half wave charger is the best choice for a large amperage battery set?
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On Aug 21, 4:27 am, snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net wrote:

Give and take, wayne
I asked first, more than ten years ago, and to date you have failed to provide any meaningful numbers to support your claims about your system.
My regulator's settings are with in the operational parameters of the battery and system.
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On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 05:15:51 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

Good. Please describe all of this "geewizzery". Should be a comedy goldmine.
Wayne
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On 18 Aug 2008 19:47:19 GMT, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

He's very clear about that, in one of previous battery wisdumb demonstrations, he asserted that "When charging, the gas given off is Hydogen Sulphide" http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/1c82f8d7690f85db

Sounds like a straight line. :-)

I can't resist 2 straight lines in a row.... the lead may have gone to his head. :-)
Wayne
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On Aug 20, 1:23 am, snipped-for-privacy@citlink.net wrote:

True, despite your usual quoting out of context. Batteries can and will give off Hydrogen Sulphide under high charge rates.

wayne spouts it

Ooooh, Shakspere is alive and well

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On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 16:13:01 -0700 (PDT), snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

The quote is clear - the struckcheral editar wrote that "the" gas is "hydogen" sulphide. How dare you dispute an expirt on both riting and baterys!
Wayne
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wrote:

Looking at an internal gas chart there is no H2S evolved in an overcharge situation or a heavy discharge situation. There is O, H, CO2 and a dab of N from the cell but no H2S.
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0101/Nelson-0101.html
et alia
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Just more of waynes dodgy science. If you can smell rotten eggs then you have hydrogen sulphide.
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In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
|> >> Batteries can and |> >>will give off Hydrogen Sulphide under high charge rates. |> |> > The quote is clear - the struckcheral editar wrote that "the" gas is |> > "hydogen" sulphide. How dare you dispute an expirt on both riting and |> > baterys! |> |> > Wayne |> |> Looking at an internal gas chart there is no H2S evolved in an overcharge |> situation or a heavy discharge situation. There is O, H, CO2 and a dab of N |> from the cell but no H2S. |> |> http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0101/Nelson-0101.html |> |> et alia |> |> -- |> |> Don Thompson |> |> Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once, |> and that makes me an expert. " |> |> There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance. |> ~Goethe |> |> It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom; |> it is another sight finer to fight for another man's. |> ~Mark Twain | | Just more of waynes dodgy science. If you can smell rotten eggs then | you have hydrogen sulphide.
Searching the internet for cases where lead-acid batteries can give off hydrogen sulfide, I find virtually nothing. There's more about using H2S for recycling the chemistry of a battery.
I don't know all the chemistry possible. Given that there is H's and S's in the broth, getting H2S is not out of the question. But how? Electrolysis would give just H and O. Maybe an arc is needed to get H2S. I guess if you get an arc between plates, then you do have a very high rate of "charge".
The question to answer, then, is why/how does H2S get produced instead of just H and O, and under what exact chemical condition?
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On Aug 20, 4:30 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Search
Intelec2001.pdf
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In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: | On Aug 20, 4:30 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:
|> |> |> >> Batteries can and |> |> >>will give off Hydrogen Sulphide under high charge rates. |> |> |> |> > The quote is clear - the struckcheral editar wrote that "the" gas is |> |> > "hydogen" sulphide. How dare you dispute an expirt on both riting and |> |> > baterys! |> |> |> |> > Wayne |> |> |> |> Looking at an internal gas chart there is no H2S evolved in an overcharge |> |> situation or a heavy discharge situation. There is O, H, CO2 and a dab of N |> |> from the cell but no H2S. |> |> |> |>http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0101/Nelson-0101.html |> |> |> |> et alia |> |> |> |> -- |> |> |> |> Don Thompson |> |> |> |> Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once, |> |> and that makes me an expert. " |> |> |> |> There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance. |> |> ~Goethe |> |> |> |> It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom; |> |> it is another sight finer to fight for another man's. |> |> ~Mark Twain |> | |> | Just more of waynes dodgy science. If you can smell rotten eggs then |> | you have hydrogen sulphide. |> |> Searching the internet for cases where lead-acid batteries can give off |> hydrogen sulfide, I find virtually nothing. There's more about using |> H2S for recycling the chemistry of a battery. |> |> I don't know all the chemistry possible. Given that there is H's and S's in |> the broth, getting H2S is not out of the question. But how? Electrolysis |> would give just H and O. Maybe an arc is needed to get H2S. I guess if you |> get an arc between plates, then you do have a very high rate of "charge". |> |> The question to answer, then, is why/how does H2S get produced instead of |> just H and O, and under what exact chemical condition? | | Search | | Intelec2001.pdf
By that name, I found such a paper. The conclusion seems to be that H2S is produced on the negative terminal during charging or overcharging. The concentration during float is on the order of 1 ppm. H2S is then absorbed back on the positive terminal maintaining the low concentration. Voltage levels higher than float voltage apparently can cause the H2S to outgas at a faster rate than it can be absorbed. The experiments did not study the effect of electrolyte temperature, so it is still possible for temperature to be an influencing factor. These levels do not pose a human toxic hazard but can be a problem for certain metals in the escaping gas.
So why didn't _you_ just summarize this to explain your statement, and then point at the paper to support the summary? I never said H2S could not be a product of this chemistry. Even before reading this paper it was obvious to me that it could as the elements could balance out to do it. But two big questions were under what conditions, and why was it not normally produced. The answer is that it is reabsorbed. But reaction rates are critical and are effected by voltage.
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snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

I seem to recall a problem with batteries on submarines if they come in contact with sea water there can be H2S produced, bad news in a sub.
Eric
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| I seem to recall a problem with batteries on submarines if they come in | contact with sea water there can be H2S produced, bad news in a sub.
I've seen people glue copper pennies the outside of car batteries. And for some, there was corrosion. Supposedly it would prevent or reduce the impact on the actual terminals (even though they had some anyway). I never found out what the corrosion was. I assumed (lightly, recognizing I didn't really know for sure) that it was gaseous H2SO4 causing it. But maybe H2S, maybe with something in the air along with it?
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In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:
|> >But would he know exactly what gas these bubble contain |> |> He's very clear about that, in one of previous battery wisdumb |> demonstrations, he asserted that "When charging, the gas given off is |> Hydogen Sulphide"http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/1c82f8d7690 ... | | True, despite your usual quoting out of context. Batteries can and | will give off Hydrogen Sulphide under high charge rates.
How high a charge rate are you talking about? Specific numbers, please.
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On Aug 20, 4:19 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:

Any thing I tell you, you will say is not true. So, with that in mind you can search;
Intelec2001.pdf
Here is the abstract
"Abstract This investigation of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in VRLA cells produced three major results. First, VRLA cells produce significant amounts of H2S even at normal float voltages. Second, the lead dioxide in the positive plates absorbs much of this H2S. Third, this H2S cycle in VRLA cells results in an equilibrium concentration level of no more than 1 ppm of H2S in the gas space of a typical cell. The data further suggests that even this low amount may decline over time."
This article is several pages and is quite detailed.
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In alt.engineering.electrical snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote: | On Aug 20, 4:19 pm, snipped-for-privacy@ipal.net wrote:
|> |> |> >But would he know exactly what gas these bubble contain |> |> |> |> He's very clear about that, in one of previous battery wisdumb |> |> demonstrations, he asserted that "When charging, the gas given off is |> |> Hydogen Sulphide"http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/1c82f8d7690 ... |> | |> | True, despite your usual quoting out of context. Batteries can and |> | will give off Hydrogen Sulphide under high charge rates. |> |> How high a charge rate are you talking about? Specific numbers, please. |> |> -- |> |WARNING: Due to extreme spam, googlegroups.com is blocked. Due to ignorance | |> | by the abuse department, bellsouth.net is blocked. If you post to | |> | Usenet from these places, find another Usenet provider ASAP. | |> | Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | | | Any thing I tell you, you will say is not true. So, with that in mind | you can search; | | Intelec2001.pdf | | Here is the abstract | | "Abstract | This investigation of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) in VRLA | cells produced three major results. First, VRLA | cells produce significant amounts of H2S even at | normal float voltages. Second, the lead dioxide in | the positive plates absorbs much of this H2S. Third, | this ?H2S cycle? in VRLA cells results in an | equilibrium concentration level of no more than 1 | ppm of H2S in the gas space of a typical cell. The | data further suggests that even this low amount | may decline over time." | | This article is several pages and is quite detailed.
For the benefit of others, this is the paper I found:
http://www.philadelphiascientific.com/Intelec2001.pdf
Several keyword based searches did not turn up this document on the first page of 100 results from Google. That could be due to the flood of pages that described H2S detectors that were battery operated, and thus had the keywords being searched.
When you find important articles/documents/papers, try to save the full URL. If there is any doubt about it, at least the actual contents can be used in another search to see how many other places it might be found at. What I do is save such things in a file path that is the same as the URL starting at the hostname. That way, if I need to cite an article, I can put http:// in front and give the original URL.
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wrote:

Sulphide"http://groups.google.com/group/alt.solar.photovoltaic/msg/1c82f8d7690 ...
Looking at the stated purpose of the paper and the "test setup" drawn in the paper it would seem that the test conditions do not match the purpose. As I understand it, in a VRLA cell the electrolyte has only limited contact with the plates. Determined by capillary action in the separator material, pressure between the plates and cetera. The test setup looks to be a Flooded Cell. The paper states that the H2S seems to be a byproduct of some unidentified impurity in the H2SO4 used to make up their electrolyte and that H2S production fell to 0 after a short time. They were able to make the plates produce more H2S only by replacing the electrolyte in the test cell. A condition not likely to occur in use.
My conclusion: To state that "THE gasses produced from charging/discharging LA batteries "is H2S" is close to idiocy."
OK. Now this subject new evidence or it is exhausted.
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| Looking at the stated purpose of the paper and the "test setup" drawn in the | paper it would seem that the test conditions do not match the purpose. As I | understand it, in a VRLA cell the electrolyte has only limited contact with | the plates. Determined by capillary action in the separator material,
Are you confusing VRLA with AGM?
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wrote:

If I am it is due to reading this paper:
http://www.battcon.com/PapersFinal2006/LandwehrlePaper2006.pdf
I'll look up AGM in a minute.
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Don Thompson

Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once,
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