Is this lock cylinder "possessed"?

OK, time for me to do a little explaining and a little guessing too. First of all, Steve is talking about the cam that moves the bolt in the lock. With no key in it and without turning the thumbpiece that cam sticks out one side of the cylinder or the other. Steve is thinking that it is sticking out the wrong side and that could be true.

As for filing the tip of your key, don't do that under any circumstance. In a profile cylinder the tip of the key very often serves to move a clutch and at other times may engage the thumbturn spindle, shortening the tip of the key may make it not be able to perform its function in that cylinder.

When you mount the cylinder in the lock, typically you have to turn the thumbpiece to move the cam so it can be inserted. You also say that the last locksmith on-site broke the cylinder by using pliers on it. There are only two reasons he would have needed pliers. 1. Something was wrong with the cylinder, likely the clutch and using pliers might force it into position. 2. The lock itself is broken in some way.

Considering these two options, I would guess that the lock itself was broken and still is. That is why the cylinder works perfectly well outside of the lock case and will not work inside the case. To verify this, remove the lock case from the door, insert the cylinder and just start the first thread of the 5mm screw. Now try the key. Doesn't work? Bad lock, replace it.

If it does work when out of the door then I suspect the door, or rather the cavity the lock is installed within. Measure that cavity for width by inserting something that just clears both sides of the mortise and see if that can be pushed all the way into the mortise. If not, the door is compressing the fairly flimsy sheet metal the case is made of and that is jamming the bolt making it hard for the cylinder to turn.

Those are my guesses and observati>

Thank you for the explanation. I will do a bit more detective work and see what I can find.

Here is what happened. One day when I tried to open the door, it won't open. It is a double door (metal) and I cannot turn unlock the deadbolt. It will turn but not all the way, it's stucked. I called a locksmith and he came over. He tried to open it from outside, then inside, then he got mad and use a screw driver to brute force it, scratched my lock, scratched my door. Then he took out a hammer and tapped on the screw driver etc etc etc...finally he said OK I need to do try one more thing...he took out his plier and turned it forcefully and "CLUCK" it broke the cylinder. I said OK now what do we do, he said well I can't help you you need to replace the door and he just left and everything disassembed partially. During his banging he even knocked loose the latch piece.

I was forced to either call another locksmith or diagnose it myself. He has already removed the push plate and the handles. So I decided to open the other side where the dummy handles are, and what do you know I see the deadbolt "caught" in there from the other side. It is not straight, so it was caught in the metal opening and won't turn. I stucked a finger in there, lifted the deadbolt and it opened.

I then removed the mortise, and this is what happened:

The picture showed the middle where the profile cylinder inserts. At the bottom there should have been two pins holding the deadbolt on it's track. Those are missing, why missing I don't know. That was the original problem. I took it to a locksmith who inserted those two pins for me and grinded those flushed and as far as I can tell and he can tell the mortise is working. I even opened it up and studied the mechanism, and it's pretty simple inside and I did not see anything out of the ordinary. I understood how the cylinder moves each piece and how the deadbolt is extended and retracted.

This locksmith did not have the broken cylinder, so I visited another who did. That lead to the current problem. Lock cannot be replaced easily (well it can the mortise will be $250 itself without the cylinder), the cylinder just does not turn when installed 99% of the time.

Sorry to be so long winded especially to those who already knew from another thread. But I thought I will share this for those who wondered why I did not hire a pro to do the job.

MC

Hi,

There is nothing wrong with your cylinder, the problem is with the lock casing. The cam of the cylinder is not engaging with the talon/dummy lever. This occurs if the lock has been attacked or the bolt is no longer supported properly ( the lock casing cap could be loose as well).

The price you mentioned seems very high. Please let me know the make and I will check out prices over here for you.

Regards

OK I took the whole thing out and took it to the locksmith. He clamped the mortise to a vise and tried it, this is the funny part, it does not happen.

Insert key, lock, unlock, pull out key - no problem.

He did it, I did it, no problem, perplexing...

Now as I was trying it I accidentally "move" the knob of the cylinder, and the key will be stucked and unable to pull out. Not unless I move the cylinder knob on the other side until I hear a very quiet "click" then it works.

Therefore, the knob and the key has to be perfectly aligned to work. I tried it - insert key, lock, unlock, pull out and repeat several times, no problem.

However, if I do not insert key, but use the knob to lock (like when I leave home, my son lock the door for me from the inside by turning the knob), and if the knob is not perfectly aligned, and I try to insert key to unlock - no luck, will not insert all the way. Strange huh?

I then showed the locksmith my original lock cylinder (one I removed from the backdoor of the same lockset) and it does not have this problem. I lock with the knob, and let the knob be five degrees to the right - insert key, no problem. Tilt it five degrees to the left, insert key no problem.

Repeat the same process with this new lock cylinder, no luck. He said for some reason the two lock "looks" the same but "finishes" different.

Next thing he tried - grind my key to a bit shorter so it will insert further? He did it, insert into cylinder, turn - it now turns and turns and will not catch the lock anymore. So now, he has it, he said he will look closer into it over the weekend. I am still confused what is going on. He told me he has been doing this for 20 years and have never seen anything like it.

MC

suggest to him.. there is a 'mechanism, between the 2 sides, that makes them interlock..so to speak.. your too short key is not touching this part, hence the turn and turn,.. perhaps it was reassembled 180 degrees out on this piece ( DO NOT ASK how i know you can do this-LOL)) or this center piece of the lock is somehow defective.. --Shiva--

OK I will suggest to him and see what he says.

It's funny, because I took both the new (the one he sold me) and the old (a part I took from the back door) to him, and showed him that the old cylinder worked perfectly when the new one does not, with EVERYTHING else being equal, he still thinks my old perfectly working one is working because it's "worn out". I don't see this logic.

Thanks for the help Shiva.

MC